[OFFICIAL W:ET] Discussion new rating method

[testforecho]

Ok I have ran some tests and actually got the values that I expected.
If you are interested I can show you the graphs

Why not, if that is not a problem it could be interesting

Wait, so this new system is going to be mainly headshot-based? Not that I can complain (my hs:kill-rate is ~2.5:1 on Jay/ETpub ), but I am just wondering.

Well, one negative thing we can say about headshots is that with some weapons it's harder to get them (engi rifle) but generally raters don't play that class.
And also one could say that hits are important too.

But imho that formula looks good, as it gives you points for 3 things:
1. kills - you have to make many kills (this is the same as the old system)
2. headshots - you need to aim well, plus you don't get many heads if you just fragsteal, which is good. Adding hits too would be cool, but unluckily with adre bodyshots make half damage, I think headshots are the best thing if you want similar results in different servers (adre on/off, fast shooting on or off)
And also, the old xp system gave 5xp for a kill with hs (in some servers) which means hs counted even before.
3. kills/deaths - (maybe kills/(deaths+1), to avoid divisions by 0?) counts kills again, so they weight more than hs, but this time you also need to avoid dying too much.

All in all I think this can't be improved easily with the stats we have (and given that damage cannot be used), plus if you read the previous posts this would be only the 'light weapons' score, to this you add battle sense XP and other things.

[giriel]

Ah pff forget my post
When doing that formula you don't get enough rewards for high amount of kills.
And the difference between low and high ratio gets cancelled by the amount of headshots.

So I am back at the first formula you suggested.
Some things I was thinking about:
- if the kills/deaths/headshot formula go negative round it to 0.
- set in a penalty of -1 for deaths by heavy weapons.
- round the total to zero again if necessarily.
-> What about covert ops? Was thinking about giving half the covert ops xp to make sure whoring with this is useless.

[testforecho]

Ah pff forget my post

hehe, I answered too soon as well I later noticed that k/d is a very small number and doesn't influence the final result much, I was trying it by parsing with a script some /statsall I did. Now I was playing around with the formula a bit, in such a way that it won't give results too much different than 5*kills.

For -1 heavy weapons I'd say no, being killed by arty can be bad tactics (running into arty) but if there is much spam I don't think we should penalize players for it, sometimes it's random, not to mention mortar kills.
For the covert ops, if you think people won't abuse it... you want to reward them for mines spotting, or?

[giriel]

Ok true those are some valid reasons.
Hmm k for covert ops nvm, mine spotting isn't something I would rank as being skilled or overly useful for objectives.
Now for those graphs I'll give it a go :p
So here we have the original formula with giving 4xp for kills, -4 for deaths and 1 for headshot.
I just looped over kills(1 to 200),deaths (1 to 100) and headshots (1 to 300). See below this picture for further info.


Now I have zoomed a bit. You can see 3 arrows.
The red one : indicating the kills gradually increasing (for every amount of kills I looped over all deaths and for all deaths I looped over all headshots).
Thus making the rate increase.
The green one indicating the deaths increasing thus the rate needs to decrease.
The black one indicating the headshots increasing the rate when you do plenty of those.


Now if we look at the ratio formula:
We don't have those clear relations anymore and the image becomes more messy.


Now I zoomed a lot and what we see is that the headshots are way to dominant.
You don't see any change by the deaths and only a small change with respect to the kills.

[testforecho]

Interesting, I am still not sure if penalizing deaths is really needed, since in order to have many kills you already need to die few times (respawn time, etc.) and more deaths also mean less killing sprees and less xp for battle sense. The fact that you have more data if compared to the past doesn't mean that you necessarily need to use them all if the formula is not an improvement, anyway if you give too much negative points for deaths, average players (same K and D), will end up getting 0 points.

If we assume 1hs = 2 bodyshots, and we ignore the difference in damage between weapons (which is assuming a lot of things ), hits + hs would be proportional to damage given, I don't have enough data to guess the average (hits+hs) needed per kill, should be around 10 in adrenaline servers.
So making (hits+hs) / 10 should be of the same order of magnitude as kills, what about:

points = ((hits + hs) / 10 + kills) * 2.5

and ignore deaths, or maybe give just a -1 for light weapon deaths? This way it would have the benefits of both worlds (high damage, that is no kill stealing and many frags, that is being able to 'finish the job')

What worries me when you take damage into account is the difference between adrenaline on/off servers, because you need to deal more damage with adre on.

[carnage]

I wasn't around since the beginning of this topic, so I'm a little confused and I don't know if what I am about to say was already mentioned.

Imo, even if the ranking was based on stats and weapon usage, there still should be a small/limited XP component for people who actually take time to help (in this case I do NOT mean handing out med/ammopacks, spotting mines or stealing uniforms) their teammates with their class skills. Or else you might as well call it "global rambo ranking". Sure, it will make nerds wet, but this game is team-based even if we all generally play for frags on Jaymod. And the whole thing should be relative to the team I'm in. If I'm in the weaker team and I struggle to get the same stats as the stacking rater(s) in the other team, does this necessarily mean I am a worse player? It'll never be repeated enough.

Just my 2 cents.

[testforecho]

I wasn't around since the beginning of this topic, so I'm a little confused and I don't know if what I am about to say was already mentioned.

I will summarize the recent posts 4 you...
the score will be probably made of:
- light weapons score (that's the one we are talking about now)
- xp that can't be gained by whoring (battle sense, engineer) + heavy weapons kills * 3xp each + revives * 4xp each (no medi packs, ammo or uniforms)

I don't know if this is confirmed, but probably points will be compared with players *on the same team* so stacking won't count anymore.

About team play, I know that it is important but we are reading stats here, tell me how can you tell if someone is good in teamplay by looking at stats, if he/she doesn't play in a scrim team. Giving packs at spawn is team play? Let's face it, many players (probably me included) don't know how to really play their classes (take field ops for example, all wasting arty, medics reviving people who were about to selfkill without looking at the spawntime, etc. etc.).

[giriel]

I understand your concerns completely
But those are indeed taken into consideration.
We are going to compare the stats on a per team basis and we keep on using battle sence and engineering xp.

Good suggestion again echo.
I like to play with such things to find some potential improvements
If you look at this image : left side is yours, right side is me changing the variables.
To make kills less dominating, because hits and headshots should get a descent amount of importance.


So this ain't making my job any easier
Are you going to keep the best idea's for last ?

[carnage]

I will summarize the recent posts 4 you...
the score will be probably made of:
- light weapons score (that's the one we are talking about now)
- xp that can't be gained by whoring (battle sense, engineer) + heavy weapons kills * 3xp each + revives * 4xp each (no medi packs, ammo or uniforms)

I don't know if this is confirmed, but probably points will be compared with players *on the same team* so stacking won't count anymore.

About team play, I know that it is important but we are reading stats here, tell me how can you tell if someone is good in teamplay by looking at stats, if he/she doesn't play in a scrim team. Giving packs at spawn is team play? Let's face it, many players (probably me included) don't know how to really play their classes (take field ops for example, all wasting arty, medics reviving people who were about to selfkill without looking at the spawntime, etc. etc.).

I know what you mean, but we both know that a system which is totally frag-based would be the death of ET (at least from a public server POV). Would you enjoy playing in a team full of medics that will never even bother reviving their teammates? There's already enough free-for-all style rambos out there and we don't need any more of them in this game. I also like people who give me ammo when I don't have any, but I understand very well that the whoring issue makes it impossible to count that for the rating (wish it could be limited, at least).

What I mean is that this new system shouldn't push people to the point that they will not care about anybody or anything, except their frags. Therefore, I think a minimum of teamplay should be taken into account and no, this isn't to defend myself or anything, as I think there surely is plenty of better teamplayers than me out there.

Anyway, speaking of engineer XP. Don't you think that could be used for whoring too (the second part of this is a perfect example)? Isn't there a way to limit the counting of class XP per minute? Because it would be needed for engineer.

And lastly, I think arty should count as a heavy weapon. Airstrikes involve sense of timing and positioning, while anybody could kill with arty (it only takes a little bit of luck).

[giriel]

Hmm seems my posts take too long to write

Arty is already in heavy weapons.
There is battle sence and engineering xp for teamplay, and perhaps we could limit them but to what?
Syringe revives for the revive part.