question

[Le_Furet]

Rating system is unfair (servers). I agree it's hard to make it very nice, but now I have stoped rating for this ; I lag extremly in F|A #2 (around 200 of ping and this .... of shoot lag), but around 30 ping in EU servers.

Good luck anyway


Btw AspiRin, MccLoud and Neon are very good players/raters. I think fix this would fix little troubles


Good game/frag and don't forget : have fun!

[Neon]

Apspirin players on US server and you play on Euro server. Both chooses the server according to there pings.

I didn't say he was abusing anything, I just said he plays on a server where the vast majority of players have very bad pings, while he doesn't.

So if I have good PC and internet, I have unfair advantage?? I don't think it's called advantage. It's more like spending the money for better services.

Well technically yes you do have an unfair advantage. For casual play nobody cares about this, and in professional leagues (not public ladder leagues btw) players compete on the same kit over LAN.

I don't think ping should be considered because if player A is lagging then it's player A fault and not others.

Its not about punishing players for lagging, or having a good connection. Obviously you would have to estimate how much a ping of 300 hurts you, 800 hurts you etc and make a rough guess. In fact, it is not really possible to get this spot on, so a weak adjustment could be made to help a little bit.

Just saying it isn't the rater's fault is not an argument. It isn't the rater's fault that everyone else on the server has a rate of 0 or if they all get a PPM of 26. The point is to adjust for it to help reduce the effect of outside influences to make a more accurate rating system.

Where it will stop if we start considering ping? Then next one would say consider PC specs too. So we penalize player having good PC?

This is probably not even possible

I don't know whole maths of rating but one thing I noticed is:
Neon, you got -ve rating when you had lesser PPM against the player who had less rating then you. Example:

http://et.trackbase.net/index.php?mo...o&idx=21231059
http://et.trackbase.net/index.php?mo...o&idx=21244449

In Aspirin case, his PPM is always higher then the players he plays against with.
Ex: http://et.trackbase.net/index.php?mo...o&idx=21320570
http://et.trackbase.net/index.php?mo...o&idx=21163414

What is your point? This has nothing to do with the discussion. Sometimes I play well, sometimes I don't. I'm not currently as careful as Aspirin is with my rate, which he is; he rates very infrequently and on the same maps, but this isn't a problem. I can do the same if I want, but atm I cba.


---
I don't want this to be taken as me whining that Aspirin is higher than me in TB, infact I actually explained this earlier. I just want the system to be as accurate as possible.

[daredevil]

I didn't say he was abusing anything, I just said he plays on a server where the vast majority of players have very bad pings, while he doesn't.

I simply mentioned he plays on US and you play on Euro i.e. both chooses server where they have low pings.

Well technically yes you do have an unfair advantage. For casual play nobody cares about this, and in professional leagues (not public ladder leagues btw) players compete on the same kit over LAN.

Its not about punishing players for lagging, or having a good connection. Obviously you would have to estimate how much a ping of 300 hurts you, 800 hurts you etc and make a rough guess. In fact, it is not really possible to get this spot on, so a weak adjustment could be made to help a little bit.

Just saying it isn't the rater's fault is not an argument. It isn't the rater's fault that everyone else on the server has a rate of 0 or if they all get a PPM of 26. The point is to adjust for it to help reduce the effect of outside influences to make a more accurate rating system.

Let me say this, this is not professional league and this are 'fun' servers. So 'ping' point is moot to begin with. No one ever said it's rater fault.

Weak or strong adjustment, point is adjustment should be valid and useful. System is not accurate and never will be because many factors play role. Everyone here wants to improve it but at the same time we don't want to over bloat it by adding new criteria/functions where there reliability is almost zero or even negative.

If you want to make it fair, put everyone in LAN with same PC and same hardware specs.

What is your point? This has nothing to do with the discussion. Sometimes I play well, sometimes I don't. I'm not currently as careful as Aspirin is with my rate, which he is; he rates very infrequently and on the same maps, but this isn't a problem. I can do the same if I want, but atm I cba.

My point was simple and very clear. From present stats what I see is Aspirin gets better PPM against any of his opponents, present on that map and hence his rating is higher. It has nothing to with ping. The reason I posted those links is because if anyone sees any coding error or calculation error they can point it out and then Paul can fix it.

To me it doesn't matter who plays good or bad or who rates seriously and who doesn't. It's player option/choice and I don't say anything on that.

-------

More or less players with bad network quality also adds lag on other player or else no admin would kick players with 500+ ping. Sometimes 250 ping doesn't cause much issue on server but a player with fluctuating ping of 50-150 with high packet loss can add more lag on server. So the thing which you see as advantage can also be seen as disadvantage to descent ping players.

My point was very clear like water. Adding ping doesn't solve any single thing and ping is not even accurate and ping even depends on network peering, hops and many other things. There are too much factors within ping and network itself.

Let me put it in laymen terms. You suggested ping should be added as one of the factor in rating and I suggested ping shouldn't be added because the reliability factor of ping is almost none.

[Neon]

I simply mentioned he plays on US and you play on Euro i.e. both chooses server where they have low pings.

Yes, you are kinda stating the obvious here, I assumed you were trying to make some kind of point beyond that. Of course Asp should play where he has a good ping, but one of the greatest mysteries of the universe is why FA#2 is full of players who choose to play with a ping of 150-200+.


Let me say this, this is not professional league and this are 'fun' servers. So 'ping' point is moot to begin with. No one ever said it's rater fault.


Saying the reliability factor is none is a MASSIVE overstatement. Would you expect to play better with a ping of 20, or a ping of 900? If the answer is yes, then you CAN make some reliable assumptions. Likewise, you CAN expect to perform better than others when you have a ping of 20, and they have a ping of 900. Saying performance has nothing to do with ping is extremely naive, especially for an experienced admin like yourself.

Also, I never said this was a professional league. My point was that nobody, me included, would go as far to demand we all play on the same system, as that is not a reasonable demand to make.

[undefetable]

Yes, you are kinda stating the obvious here, I assumed you were trying to make some kind of point beyond that. Of course Asp should play where he has a good ping, but one of the greatest mysteries of the universe is why FA#2 is full of players who choose to play with a ping of 150-200+.

yeah i feel the same but same happens with me because i play with 400 ping on fa2 where as i have 220 ping on fa3 still i play always on fa2 so i think fact of more players playing on fa2 with high ping is easier avabilty their to get good rate.

[daredevil]

Yes, you are kinda stating the obvious here, I assumed you were trying to make some kind of point beyond that. Of course Asp should play where he has a good ping, but one of the greatest mysteries of the universe is why FA#2 is full of players who choose to play with a ping of 150-200+.

Let me say this, this is not professional league and this are 'fun' servers. So 'ping' point is moot to begin with. No one ever said it's rater fault.

Saying the reliability factor is none is a MASSIVE overstatement. Would you expect to play better with a ping of 20, or a ping of 900? If the answer is yes, then you CAN make some reliable assumptions. Likewise, you CAN expect to perform better than others when you have a ping of 20, and they have a ping of 900. Saying performance has nothing to do with ping is extremely naive, especially for an experienced admin like yourself.

Also, I never said this was a professional league. My point was that nobody, me included, would go as far to demand we all play on the same system, as that is not a reasonable demand to make.

I like how you quoted my obvious answer which was explanation to your question and then you post it's obvious. Coming back to your point. Did I ever said, ping is not related to performance? My statement was very clear. Ping is not a reliable factor in 'rating/stats' because ping can be affected by many things.

Ping can be affected by many factors:

1. Player modem in itself.
2. Player router
3. Player ISP
4. Player location
5. Player packet loss.
etc etc

Then comes data center routing, set up, bandwidth, peering, network providers, etc. For you, "ping is not reliable factor in rating" could be massive overstatement but for me it's but obvious statement because I know how many thing's can affect the ping. You don't really need to be an experienced admin or certified network engineer to see this.

Why do you think EA multimillion gaming company doesn't include ping in there stats? http://bfbcs.com/ They can show your each weapon accuracy, kills, death, etc but not ping? The fact is even they know ping is not reliable factor when it comes to 'stats' or 'rating'.

Just to show you one of many basic example of how your home router affects the ping and packet loss. Many routers comes with setting of high TCP and UDP timeouts and low max connection limit. Once you start p2p sharing and create 500 connections, they will remain alive in router until timeout. Now lets say downloading is over on p2p but you start playing ET and if your router has low RAM and bad settings, you will see throttling on speed and higher latency then avg of what you get. Most of the kids don't understand how network, router, p2p, etc works and then it starts, oh I have 10Mbs download speed and still lag!!!! Well fact is they have more then 15% packet loss on there router itself.. in that cases even God can't help. This is just basic example.

Now if you go to data center networking, it works on peering, hops, switches, configuration, etc etc. ISP YYY from country B will have nice ping to datacenter A in country C but country X with ISP ABC will have pathetic ping and at the same time ISP XYZ from same country X will have nice ping. Why? Peering from ISP XYZ is bad to datacenter A or vice versa. It could be ISP issue, Hub issue, BW issue, line issue, etc etc. We are not at all considering here the things which player or any admin can fix.

Player A with ping 150 with 2% packet loss can play way better then the player B with 75 ping and 20-40% packet loss. More or less sometimes with high packet loss players are hard to hit because they start warping. So here player A is at loss cos he can't shoot player B cos of his shitty packet loss which results in warping.

Sometimes data center choose different path for peering i.e. it increases hop from US to Asia which results in less packet loss but little higher latency. In UDP you can deal with latency but if packet or snapshot is lossed, it's gone and you can't get it back.

Less ping with high packet loss = Major issue.
Avg ping with no or negligible packet loss = No issue.
High ping with no packet loss = Minimal issue cos of latency but if you are receiving all snapshots, all is good.
High ping with high packet loss = Results in admin kick.

I tried to explain you very basic things and if you still consider ping should be in add in rating calculation, you are free to believe what you want. Fact will remain same. It's not added since years and I don't think any decent coder will because any person who knows how latency is calculated and how many factors can effect it will tell ping is not reliable factor in stats. Show me any popular FPS gaming stats processing website where ping is added? As of yet, I haven't seen any for ET, COD series or BF series. There is a reason why it's not added.

If you don't believe what I said, my friend Google is your friend.

@undefetable - You play from across the globe i.e. from Asia(India) on US server. What do you expect? 100 ping? Please don't tell me about the quality of your ISP (Airtel) in Delhi because I know very well how it is. Speed and quality both sucks for airtel.

[vodka.ru]

This topic can take a Nobel Prize in Mathematics and Philosophy
Respect

[Svetlana]

This topic can take a Nobel Prize in Mathematics and Philosophy
Respect

no it cant because none of these wannabes knows what the hell hes talking about.

[Manu]

I think the meaning of this post went away.. i mean problem is fixed why still speak about that ? it's totally offtopics. Create an other thread about how to make rate or what you want but it's usless imo to speak more here.

[undefetable]

@undefetable - You play from across the globe i.e. from Asia(India) on US server. What do you expect? 100 ping? Please don't tell me about the quality of your ISP (Airtel) in Delhi because I know very well how it is. Speed and quality both sucks for airtel.

first of all i am not interested in ping because i have been playing with 300+ ping for 1.5 yrs so i am used to it i meant to say that people were talking that why high ping players play on fa2 even if they can get lesser ping on other fa servers its mostly because easy + rate avability there (ie 26 rate player gets + at 15 rate).
ping is of no discussion here and topic is being extended because it was just about aspirin and its now being extended ....
it went to 4 pages out of which 3 pages were off topic