[OFFICIAL W:ET] Discussion new rating method [Archive]

Paul

9-08-2011, 10:58

Hello raters, players and all other people which I forget,

After all the problems that have been coming up we decided to retry to make it possible to do better tracking.
Weeks have gone over with developing a new tracker which can connect to a server and fetch additional playerstats.
We are currently still testing this new system, but it is almost ready for a full-scale test. With this new system we're able to read out the following (extra) data:
Weapon (total) stats => HITS, SHOTS, KILLS, DEATHS & HEADSHOTS
XP => Per skill: Battle sense, light weapons, heavy weapons, medic, engineer, field ops, covert ops & soldier
Damage => Damage given, Damage received & Team damage

Since we like our community so much, we decided to take this to a public discussion. What needs to be discussed is which value will replace the "XP", in this discussion it's NOT needed to take factors as how many + or - rate and map length etc. Just talk about the new "total point value" for a map.

The old system will NOT stop running, but this new system will run at the same time, making a double ranking for the time being.

Any questions? Fire ahead!

Kind Regards,

The Trackbase Team

epsi

9-08-2011, 11:35

holy sh*t, this is awesome!! Great work you did there, can't wait to see this new system running.

As you can now read the XP per skill and to prevent the well known "XP whoring" issue, XP made by the specific abilities of medic, field ops and covert ops should not be considered - thats for sure. Easiest way: The highest fragger should get the best rating. Ppl. with the most HS, having good kill to death stats must get the better rating via TB. So what should replace the XP? -> Weapon stats OR Damage given, Damage received. I guess DG & DR is the simplest way =)

I repeat: Awesome work guys!!

Paul

9-08-2011, 13:24

Personally I was thinking about one of those:
Total XP - Medic-Fops-Covie + Satchel kill XP + revives + Arti/Airstrike XP

OR

Damage given + engineerxp*extrafactor

But feel free to discuss on, the more thoughts we have on this, the better!

Spl@$h~

9-08-2011, 14:19

yeah well i remember you said it was possible to set a xp limit per min to medic/fops etc ... ( restricted if you prefer to a " correct" value that everyone could get )
in my opinion, i think this should still be counted, the same for engineer.

Just thinking about teamplay if meds/ammos packs dont count anymore , not many ppl will heal/supply others or even ( revive (if thats included ).

but if not your method is great for fraggers !

epsi

9-08-2011, 14:32

Total XP - Medic-Fops-Covie + Satchel kill XP + revives + Arti/Airstrike XP

On some servers you get more XP when you hit the enemy. So this servers give the ppl. playing there a massive advance to others when you use this method. Thats not fair than tbh, or am I wrong?

So I would go for this

Damage given + engineerxp*extrafactor
This also assist a bit the obj. players

Just thinking about teamplay if meds/ammos packs dont count anymore , not many ppl will heal/supply others or even ( revive (if thats included ).
but if not your method is great for fraggers !

Many many ppl. don't care about rating, I doubt this will effect the teamplay on pub fun servers on a noticeable way. XP whores (we have a lot of them in the top 100) also don't really support their team these days. Also you keep the "old" system too =)

Dragonji

9-08-2011, 14:39

Just thinking about teamplay if meds/ammos packs dont count anymore , not many ppl will heal/supply others or even ( revive (if thats included ).
That would mean no more teamplay, medics won't revive/heal teammates because only rambo-tactic will make higher rating.

Torte

9-08-2011, 14:45

good news & big surprise!

think new ranking system will be change a lot.

this tracker will help to keep other servers alive.

fantastic job guys.

dont understand why u need discussion here....its time to set it online:D

Toooooooooooooooort :w00t:

epsi

9-08-2011, 14:46

That would mean no more teamplay, medics won't revive/heal teammates because only rambo-tactic will make higher rating.

The old system will NOT stop running, but this new system will run at the same time, making a double ranking for the time being.

Damage given + engineerxp*extrafactor

Many many ppl. don't care about rating, I doubt this will effect the teamplay on pub fun servers on a noticeable way. XP whores (we have a lot of them in the top 100) also don't really support their team these days. Also you keep the "old" system too.

I totally don't think so, Dragon. It's not like even 15 % of the pub ETplayers care about rating. And let's say from this 15 % maybe 5 % are that ego that they don't even heal anymore =)

Shownie

9-08-2011, 15:08

The only thing which should be calculated to the player rating is the xp gain for kills!

Really, how skilled can you say you are when you build/heal/or supply. The skill factor should only count the xp gain for killing others, or the xp gain when hitting an enemy (jaymod has feature which gives you xp for hits).

I can't really understand those people going around and think they are skilled when they steal a uniform, or building the command post. Yes, it might be skills to revive the whole team if so is the case. But really, the rate factor should only include the K/D or the XP per KILLS!

Cheers!

Dragonji

9-08-2011, 16:06

Shownie

9-08-2011, 18:54

Please tell me, where is it written that rating = skill?

Please tell me where I wrote that rating equals skill?

It is quite obvious that most kids (yes I say kids) thinks they are skilled because they are in top 10. I don't know what you think of it, but that is what I know! I ain't saying everyone does have that thinking, but many does.

Never mind.. So according to you, what does rate show now? And even better, WHAT SHOULD IT SHOW?!

Le_Furet

9-08-2011, 23:18

Best is a complete and balanced calcul.

Components (+ : bonus ; - : malus) :

+ Kills x0,7
+ [(Hits x2) / Average players in the session]
+ 20% of headshots
+ 10% of Medic XP + Engineer XP + Field ops XP
+ 35% of Light weapons XP
+ 15% of Battlesens XP
+ 5% of damage given
- [(Deaths / 4) + (Damages received / 20

TOTAL Rounded to the superior whole (sry for translate)

Example (random good round) :

150 kills x 0,7 = 105
[(500 x2) hits / 40 Average players in the session] = 25
15% of 250 headshots = 37,5
10% of 600 = 60
35% of 300 = 105
20% of 40 = 8
0,2% of 20 000 = 40
[(40 deaths / 4) + (8 000 damages received / 500)] = (10 + 16) = 26

TOTAL = 354,5, rounded : 355.

Omnipotent

10-08-2011, 11:24

Well the idea sounds great it truly does, but it will aggravate even more the difference between the host clan that doesn't rate and the high skilled raters that come there to play. It has, and it is, been a problem for years that "fraggers" don't heal but save the bar for them self, let it be adrenaline or just to able to heal them self. This creates the dislike between the server admins and the raters, which has included many times for bans, kicks, gibs you name it. For now there has been at least for small reason for these so called "fraggers" to heal now and then, but if you cut, for instance, like le_furet suggested 10% no fragger would bother to trow a single med pack if they are rating. The original idea about the limit of med pack xp you can get per minute would be much better. It only leaves the question what is the right limit that it should be, 10, 20? I have no idea to be honest.

Another thing how to limit cov ops whoring since currently it is clearly the most efficient method to get high rate (like 24) in just a matter of days, look for ETc|Dra|G|on for instance. Would the right limit be 2 or 3 suits per minute? Even so it would leave the problem that it still allows it in a small scale people would just count when they can take a new one.So question is how to limit it in a right way? After all are we going to the discussion that these changes will make it so that one can only rate efficiently by using one class, medic.

Well these are just couple points that came to my mind at the start

Spl@$h~

10-08-2011, 12:48

Le_Furet

10-08-2011, 14:50

10 -20 xp per min is too much as limit , if we choose to include those XP , it should be limited at 3-5 xp maxi per min ( 1 revive or 3 med packs)
For unis it should be the same , 1 unis per min , engineer etc limited too.
if you play normally and help teammates by healing them or doing your job as engi/cvops , you will get a part of xp counted,never mind which class you play so thats balanced.

You can not choose to count engi XP and not count med/fops or cvops.

It's a way to avoid xp whoring , and make everyone happy because everything count , and get advanced stats andeven K/D ratio for the one who likes it.

but the goal is to get a better ranking system than the one we already have , a different system more based on kills /deaths /hs /damages .

Dude here is your answer....

Best is a complete and balanced calcul.

Components (+ : bonus ; - : malus) :

+ Kills x0,7
+ [(Hits x2) / Average players in the session]
+ 20% of headshots
+ 10% of Medic XP + Engineer XP + Field ops XP
+ 35% of Light weapons XP
+ 15% of Battlesens XP
+ 5% of damage given
- [(Deaths / 4) + (Damages received / 20

TOTAL Rounded to the superior whole (sry for translate)

Example (random good round) :

150 kills x 0,7 = 105
[(500 x2) hits / 40 Average players in the session] = 25
15% of 250 headshots = 37,5
10% of 600 = 60
35% of 300 = 105
20% of 40 = 8
0,2% of 20 000 = 40
[(40 deaths / 4) + (8 000 damages received / 500)] = (10 + 16) = 26

TOTAL = 354,5, rounded : 355.

giriel

10-08-2011, 17:58

Problem with your approach Le_furet is that some servers don't start with their xp at zero (I think at franceclan for example).
Those players would have an unfair advantage then.

Saving all the statistics within the database isn't feasible yet so we can't just use the differences either.

Good suggestion though, we could use some more like that :)

Le_Furet

10-08-2011, 19:50

Problem with your approach Le_furet is that some servers don't start with their xp at zero (I think at franceclan for example).
Those players would have an unfair advantage then.

Don't start with their xp at zero? (Que veux-tu dire exactement? ^^)

Scarhand

10-08-2011, 23:16

Rating is the attempted calculated numerical equivalent to skill, is it not? Skill in ET is more than just aim. Skill is being able to accomplish something the best. More than just aim, it takes tactics, and it takes a wholistic view, building a mental model of what is happening at all times, and changing tactics, strategies, classes, and targets accordingly. ET is not a fragging game, it is a team-oriented objective-based game. For those who are saying that rating should be more/only frag based, then it becomes less descriptive of skill. Fragger only system discourages teamplay and may negatively impact this objective based game as a whole.
However, there is a reason that people say it should be more frag based. Some people take pride in fragging ability, and want to know it and compare it to other players. There is not really any current system for fragging ability being tracked, and it would greatly help trackbase become a preferred tracker system.

My suggestion is this:
Paul stated in the opening post, the two systems will run at the same time. This means that you can have XP-based (frags and class based operations), and also have a frag only based rating, which will most likely satisfy 99% of the people here. Contemplating it for a good long time only furthers my support for this dual rating system.

For the XP-based system, I think it is fine as the current tracker settings go. No need to demote certain classes. The system feels balanced class-wise, and while others may say its not, they will vary in which is unbalanced and may base it off of their play style. System is fine as is I think. Abnormal XP gains (large, and large relative to player) should be logged I think though, but not limited.

As for the frag based system:
#kills + ((HS / Damage Given) * x) - (damage recieved / x) ---- Strike that, read my new formula in my edit below, this one is terrible. :O----
x is any static number used to balance the value with other values. Basically kills value, + hs ratio value, minus a small portion of damage received. Damage received should not be too hurtful though, a negative rating should be rare.
Haven't put much thought into it yet, just made it off the top of my head in a few seconds, so feel free to bash this quick calculation, or improve it.
Edit: Ahh, forgot to include accuracy. Maybe I'll work on this formula sometime and come up with something decent. Oh, and maybe team damage is doubled and then deducted from your damage.

---

Edit 2: Still haven't gotten much time to think about the fragging formula, but these are my new ideas:

Damage As Basis
Someone gets a couple headshots on someone, and someone steals the kill with a single bullet to the back. Does that make them skilled? No. Damage, is the real measure of frag power, not kills.

Dodging and avoiding damage also takes skill. Striking teamates is extremely sloppy and reckless and is the opposite of skillful.

However, it is more than just doing high damage. The speed and efficiency of the kill must also be considered, meaning high acc and headshots also makes you much more skilled.
However, this efficiency also leads to more kills (more damage) and less damage received, and is already partially considered through damage.
But if you shoot someone in the back from a distance with all body shots and kill them before the shoot you, you get about just as much credit as multiple headies in the back of the head from a distance, because you do their HP bar in damage either way and get no damage received if they don't shoot back, so it needs to be considered still in this scenario, but in most cases it also leads to more rating through more damage, because it leads to dying less, and more ammo in clip to continue damaging.

Until I get time for additional thought into this, I give this:

(Damage_Given + (Damage_Given * (HS / Hits) * (Hits / Shots)) - ((.5 * Damage_Recieved) + (2 * Team_Damage))

---

A dual system would work great, so fraggers can point out their rating with each other and xp gainers can be the envy of scrim teams worldwide. Two types of ratings has no downside other than having to track both.

TerrorTom

11-08-2011, 03:22

Yup. A frag based system without including xp in the formular like Scarhands idea sounds best.
All other ways would be the same like the existing system only a little bit different.

Scarhand

11-08-2011, 06:22

Amendment to my frag rate formula.

As it was, team damage was a factor. This gives players who play on team-damage enabled servers a disadvantage from those who don't. This is removed.
1/2 damage received is being changed to damage_received / damage_given so it isn't as harsh toward aggressive playing strategy rather than camping style.

(Damage_Given * (HS / Hits) * (Hits / Shots))
This needs major revamp because it favors playing time.
As it was, it favored longer play times, as the Hs and acc bonuses would be greater for players who played longer than players with less time and equal aim.
If it was static (eg. (X * (HS / Hits) * (Hits / Shots)) ) then it would be worse because it would favor players with shorter play times. Imagine two players with equal skill who do equally well. Numbers for demonstration only, I know they aren't realistic: Player 1 plays 2 mins and gets 200 dmg with static aim bonus of 100, Player 2 plays 1 minute with 100 dmg and aim bonus of 100. Player 1 would only get 1.5 rate while player 2 gets 2 rate, because player 2 played shorter.
Both static and dmg dependent are skewed by playing time, so aim bonus must be dependent on time. This fixes the playing time issue.
Changed to : ((Damage_Given/Time_Played) * (HS / Hits) * (Hits / Shots)) I may have to add a +x or *x for balancing purposes, but ill input realistic numbers another time.

New formula:
(Damage_Given + ((Damage_Given / Time_Played) * (HS / Hits) * (Hits / Shots))) - (Damage_Recieved / Damage_Given )

Keep in mind that I recommend you use two rating systems at the same time, XP based and frag based. It may take a lot of work, but it would be awesome to have a dual-rating system.

Edit: Oh, and Paul, does the ability to track stats mean we will have an average stats page for players now?

giriel

11-08-2011, 13:00

Don't start with their xp at zero? (Que veux-tu dire exactement? ^^)
Il y a des serveurs ou les joueurs commencent avec un xp plus elever que d'autre. (Comme franceclan) Et pour calculer les differences on doit stocker trop donc c'est pas possible.

I would like to point out that the system is still going to use a PPM basis. As such the rate calculated will be divided by the amount of time played.
Therefor you should not use it in your formula just yet.
Next to that you can use averages as such:

We can calculate the total amount of damage done by every player(with a minimum threshold cause otherwise it won't be very fair either), damage received, and then divide it by the number of players we used in this calculation.

As such I was thinking more in the direction of :

{ (DamageGiven / AvDamageGiven) / (DamageReceived / AvDamageReceived) } * (Hits - Headshots) +
{ (DamageGiven / AvDamageGiven)² / (DamageReceived / AvDamageReceived) } * (Headshots)

Scarhand thanks for your suggestions they were useful, some pointers :

- Your left and right side of the formula aren't very proportionate. (Damage_Received / Damage_Given) will be really small and as such it won't have much influence in your calculation.

- Same thing in the right hand side: (HS / Hits) * (Hits / Shots) will become (HS / Shots) which is in most cases also quite small.
Even more so when we have to sum all the shots of all weapons that do headshots and all the produced headshots.

Still it was a great attempt with logical explanation! That's how we can solve this :).

For those who want to join in the thought process but have no idea about numbers here are some examples:

MP-40 : hits : 68, shots : 333, accuracy: 20.420420, kills : 13, deaths : 2, headshots : 9
Thompson : hits : 0, shots : 0, accuracy: 0.000000, kills : 0, deaths : 4, headshots : 0
Panzer : hits : 0, shots : 0, accuracy: 0.000000, kills : 0, deaths : 1, headshots : 0
Grenade : hits : 1, shots : 5, accuracy: 20.000000, kills : 0, deaths : 0, headshots : 0
Airstrike : hits : 0, shots : 1, accuracy: 0.000000, kills : 0, deaths : 1, headshots : 0
Artillery : hits : 12, shots : 6, accuracy: 200.000000, kills : 4, deaths : 0, headshots : 0
Syringe : hits : 0, shots : 1, accuracy: 0.000000, kills : 0, deaths : 0, headshots : 0
Damage given : 3005, Damage received : 1657, Team damage : 0

Battle Sense : 52808 points
Engineering : 230130 points
First Aid : 50633 points
Signals : 43701 points
Light Weapons : 55480 points
Heavy Weapons : 54792 points
Covert Ops : 50427 points

Colt : hits : 0, shots : 0, accuracy: 0.000000, kills : 0, deaths : 1, headshots : 0
MP-40 : hits : 169, shots : 852, accuracy: 19.835681, kills : 16, deaths : 33, headshots : 25
Thompson : hits : 131, shots : 574, accuracy: 22.822300, kills : 12, deaths : 11, headshots : 9
Sten : hits : 0, shots : 0, accuracy: 0.000000, kills : 0, deaths : 1, headshots : 0
Panzer : hits : 0, shots : 0, accuracy: 0.000000, kills : 0, deaths : 2, headshots : 0
F.Thrower : hits : 0, shots : 0, accuracy: 0.000000, kills : 0, deaths : 2, headshots : 0
Grenade : hits : 1, shots : 1, accuracy: 100.000000, kills : 0, deaths : 1, headshots : 0
Mortar : hits : 0, shots : 0, accuracy: 0.000000, kills : 0, deaths : 5, headshots : 0
Airstrike : hits : 1, shots : 5, accuracy: 20.000000, kills : 0, deaths : 1, headshots : 0
Artillery : hits : 10, shots : 7, accuracy: 142.857143, kills : 7, deaths : 1, headshots : 0
MG-42 Gun : hits : 0, shots : 0, accuracy: 0.000000, kills : 0, deaths : 1, headshots : 0
Damage given : 7564, Damage received : 10004, Team damage : 0

Battle Sense : 52058 points
Engineering : 8571 points
First Aid : 50715 points
Signals : 20084 points
Light Weapons : 53895 points
Heavy Weapons : 50928 points
Covert Ops : 50182 points

Luger : hits : 2, shots : 10, accuracy: 20.000000, kills : 0, deaths : 0, headshots : 0
MP-40 : hits : 36, shots : 156, accuracy: 23.076923, kills : 7, deaths : 33, headshots : 5
Thompson : hits : 132, shots : 501, accuracy: 26.347305, kills : 12, deaths : 11, headshots : 11
Panzer : hits : 86, shots : 79, accuracy: 108.860759, kills : 54, deaths : 7, headshots : 0
F.Thrower : hits : 0, shots : 0, accuracy: 0.000000, kills : 0, deaths : 1, headshots : 0
Grenade : hits : 0, shots : 4, accuracy: 0.000000, kills : 0, deaths : 2, headshots : 0
Mortar : hits : 0, shots : 0, accuracy: 0.000000, kills : 0, deaths : 9, headshots : 0
Artillery : hits : 0, shots : 0, accuracy: 0.000000, kills : 0, deaths : 2, headshots : 0
Damage given : 20334, Damage received : 12394, Team damage : 0

Battle Sense : 52162 points
Engineering : 326 points
First Aid : 53695 points
Signals : 50 points
Light Weapons : 55494 points
Heavy Weapons : 53208 points
Covert Ops : 50011 points

Colt : hits : 11, shots : 54, accuracy: 20.370370, kills : 2, deaths : 0, headshots : 5
MP-40 : hits : 0, shots : 0, accuracy: 0.000000, kills : 0, deaths : 2, headshots : 0
Thompson : hits : 0, shots : 0, accuracy: 0.000000, kills : 0, deaths : 1, headshots : 0
Mortar : hits : 129, shots : 221, accuracy: 58.371041, kills : 64, deaths : 1, headshots : 0
Damage given : 16742, Damage received : 702, Team damage : 0

Battle Sense : 3241 points
Engineering : 1100 points
Signals : 38 points
Light Weapons : 358 points
Heavy Weapons : 3824 points
Covert Ops : 182 points

More can be found by yourself by playing ET and doing a statsdump :)

Scarhand

11-08-2011, 13:42

We can calculate the total amount of damage done by every player(with a minimum threshold cause otherwise it won't be very fair either), damage received, and then divide it by the number of players we used in this calculation.

As such I was thinking more in the direction of :

{ (DamageGiven / AvDamageGiven) / (DamageReceived / AvDamageReceived) } * (Hits - Headshots) +
{ (DamageGiven / AvDamageGiven)² / (DamageReceived / AvDamageReceived) } * (Headshots)

Scarhand thanks for your suggestions they were useful, some pointers :

- Your left and right side of the formula aren't very proportionate. (Damage_Received / Damage_Given) will be really small and as such it won't have much influence in your calculation.

- Same thing in the right hand side: (HS / Hits) * (Hits / Shots) will become (HS / Shots) which is in most cases also quite small.
Even more so when we have to sum all the shots of all weapons that do headshots and all the produced headshots.

Still it was a great attempt with logical explanation! That's how we can solve this :).

In your calculation you are figuring it in relation to other players already? I was rating you with a number, and that number would be compared to other player's rate and rate for that session. You are comparing them right from the start, I'm not sure how you will be able to factor in the rating of other players for experience calculation if you already use session comparison to determine rate. Also, you give no credit to accuracy.

Damage received was intended to not make a large impact. However, this was just a thought experiment and I didn't plug in numbers, it will be too small of a number. I'll work on this when I get more time.
(HS / Hits) * (Hits / Shots) is not the same as (HS/Shots), it gives as much credit to accuracy as headshot ratio. I believe both should be of equal value. This is also multiplied by your dmg per minute which may make it more significant. Again, I haven't had the time to run tests for my formula.

I'll work on this.

giriel

11-08-2011, 18:18

Scarhand

11-08-2011, 20:46

Hmm true, already using the averages is a bad idea.

Still my other remarks stay the same.
HS/Hits * Hits /Shots = HS/shots that's just pure math.

Also we need to be careful with those headshots since not all weapons perform them.

My bad on that math part. Only had like a minute to make a post and it was early morning, my brain read HS/Shots * Hits/Shots which is why it didn't add up.
Yes, not all weapons perform them, this is true. However, for weapons that don't use headshots, there is less skill involved in them. Do you think you should get as much rating for a hit with a panzer than a headshot with a luger?

As for my formula, it seems I have forgotten Occam's Razor, or at least the inaccurate summary of it. By multiplying damage (Later became Damage/Time) by your aim percentages, it guaranteed that trying to get good hs/acc will always benefit the player. If it were static, Players with high damage would be relatively unaffected while players with low damage would do better by trying to never miss a shot, rather than trying to kill people. Seemed good, but there is a problem. That will give more of a bonus to players who are already doing better. The Damage_Recieved/Damage_Given does the same thing, and though I had an idea to fix it, I may get rid of that one as well, even though it helped aggressive strategy, because it also gives more rating to players who already have more rating. While this itself wont break a rating system, I would rather it be a more simple formula.

As of now, I am thinking more of this simplistic idea:
(Damage_Given - (.5 * Damage_Received)) * (HS / Shots)
This gives a problem still of messed up ratings from never shooting, or from never getting a headshot (although even the worst players seem to always get many accidental headshots, it cannot be assumed they always will). If anyone can think of a more elegant solution than HS + 1 and Shots + 1, please contribute.
Also, I feel this still encourages camping too much, I need a better way of handling damage received, so that there isn't a disadvantage to playing aggressively.

Still no time to start testing numbers, for now its still a thought experiment.

giriel

12-08-2011, 10:51

I like your experiments and thought about some changes:

We want players to make as much damage as possible without losing their accuracy, as such trying to minimize the camping.

(Damage Given) / (Shots - Hits)

Punishing them for being hit, but minimizing this if they themselves hit a lot of other players :

- (Damage received / Hits)

Headshots should also be rewarded, that's the tricky part:

+ (Damage Given * Headshots) / (Shots - Headshots)

-> I took Shots instead of Hits because otherwise I think this will have to big of an impact upon the formula.

Total :

{(Damage Given) / (Shots - Hits)} + {(Damage Given * Headshots) / (Shots - Headshots) } - {Damage Received / Hits}

About the remarks you made:

-> We could make it so that if someone hasn't done a single shot they will not be rated using this new method.
-> About the headshots and damage received, that is fixed in my suggestion but perhaps doesn't satisfy you just yet :) .

Le_Furet

12-08-2011, 14:52

You are just explaning my formula or make it different form lol...

Pour les serveurs ou les joueurs commencent avec un xp plus elever que d'autre c'est une autre affaire, qui peut surement être régler parallèlement. :P

Scarhand

12-08-2011, 19:16

We want players to make as much damage as possible without losing their accuracy, as such trying to minimize the camping.

(Damage Given) / (Shots - Hits)

Headshots should also be rewarded, that's the tricky part:

+ (Damage Given * Headshots) / (Shots - Headshots)

-> I took Shots instead of Hits because otherwise I think this will have to big of an impact upon the formula.

I see where you are going with this, but rather than divide by how often you miss, I multiplied by how many times you hit. Either works. However, I wanted to combine your headshot percentage and accuracy into a single component, your "aim component" as it is solely dependent on your aim. I see you are not wanting to treat headshot percentage the same as accuracy, and I have thought about this; heavy weapons users will not get accuracy bonuses at all if I multiply those values together, and they are entitled to the accuracy bonus. I am really considering your approach to this.

I don't entirely agree with your approach to headshots, however. By multiplying damage by the number of headshots rather than the headshot percentage, you are favoring longer play times. People who play longer may have only 1 headshot per kill, and have 70 headshots over the map, while a person who joined recently may have 2 headshots per kill, but only get 40 headshots total, getting less headshot bonus (Less Damage * Less Headshots) even though he is better at getting them. Shots - Headshots is headshot ratio and accuracy combined, and because accuracy is already accounted for, this should be changed. I guess this was just your attempt at soving problems of 0% accuracy glitching the rate.

Punishing them for being hit, but minimizing this if they themselves hit a lot of other players :

- (Damage received / Hits)

I REALLY like this idea. I was trying to think of how to do this and this is a good way to not penalize aggressive players too much.

Total :

{(Damage Given) / (Shots - Hits)} + {(Damage Given * Headshots) / (Shots - Headshots) } - {Damage Received / Hits}

About the remarks you made:

-> We could make it so that if someone hasn't done a single shot they will not be rated using this new method.
-> About the headshots and damage received, that is fixed in my suggestion but perhaps doesn't satisfy you just yet :) .

I may be changing mine again, but I am trying to think of the proper solution to combining the "aim factor" to the damage given. When multiplied, it favors longer play time. If static aim factor, then a value must be determined for it and it would not hold its rate value compared to damage given. Your suggestions may be very helpful in this part Giriel, you have some good ideas. I'll edit this post and add my latest formula after I think about it more. Edit: Actually Giriel, you are close to having it right, I'm going to change a few things, but it will be based off of what you have.

giriel

13-08-2011, 00:51

Great that would be nice.
Still don't really understand the problem with the duration of the players session.
Since it will always be divided by the number of minutes played that shouldn't be an issue according to me.
Or am I missing something here :P

Scarhand

13-08-2011, 21:37

((Damage_Given / Time_Played) * (Hits / Shots)) + ((Damage_Given / Time_Played) * (Headshots / Hits)) - (Damage_Received / Hits)

Headshot ratio and accuracy must not be divided by time played, or if two players have equal aim, the one who played longer would get less rating. Because of this, frag rating will not be given in points and ppm. Damage_Given needs to be divided by time played, and a single rating is issued for that session, which will then be compared with your rating and other players ratings and session ratings.

I don't see any easy way to fix divide by 0s without throwing off accuracy of the rate, without conditional statements. Conditional statements should be possible though. (If hits = 0, then...)

Giriel's first stat example with this formula, low hs, damage, and acc for play time used for calculation:
Damage Given : 3005
Damage Received : 1657
Head Shots : 9
Hits : 81
Shots : 349
Time Played : will use 30 min on these because unknown, though probably much lower with this sample
((3005 / 30) * (81 / 349)) + ((3005 / 30) * (9 / 81)) - (1657 / 81)
23.247851 + 11.1296296 - 20.4567901
13.9206905
13.92

Stats example 2, smg with low damage and more received than given:
Damage Given : 7564
Damage Received : 10004
Head Shots : 34
Hits : 312
Shots : 1439
((7564 / 30) * (312 / 1439)) + ((7564 / 30) * (34 / 312)) - (10004 / 312)
54.666852 + 27.4760684 - 32.0641026
50.0788178
50.08

Example 3, panzer yielding relatively very high damage:
Damage given : 20334
Damage received : 12394
Head Shots : 16
Hits : 256
Shots : 740
((20334 / 30) * (256 / 740)) + ((20334 / 30) * (16 / 256)) - (12394 / 256)
234.482162 + 42.3625 - 48.4140625
228.430599
228.43

Example 4, mortar, high damage but did worse than panzer, but almost no damage received:
Damage given : 16742
Damage received : 702
Head Shots : 5
Hits : 140
Shots : 275
((16742 / 30) * (140 / 275)) + ((16742 / 30) * (5 / 140)) - (702 / 140)
284.106667 + 19.9309524 - 5.01428571
299.02

Obviously the heavy weapons did much better, but smg is more skill dependent, and I would like to try this out with my own stats some time. I don't think it is overly powered to the high-damage heavy weapons, I think it is just the sampling, and uknown times.

Anyone else have thoughts on the formula?

Edit: Played The last 9.73 minutes of Oilraid to get some stats really quick, even though there was very few players playing on the server and the session was short, but I wanted to get a realistic calculation from an accurate play-length:

>>> Map: oilraid

Overall stats for: -=PDP=-Scarhand (0 Rounds)

Weapon Acrcy Hits/Atts Kills Deaths Headshots
-------------------------------------------------
Knife : 0.0 0/6 0 0 0
MP-40 : 35.0 21/60 4 1 5
Thompson : 30.7 107/348 20 4 34
Dynamite : 100.0 1/1 1 0
K43 Rifle: 0 1 0
Foot Kick: 100.0 1/1 1 0

Damage Given: 3679 Team Damage: 0
Damage Recvd: 1627

Damage Given : 3679
Damage Received : 1627
Head Shots : 39
Hits : 130
Shots : 414
((3679 / 9.73) * (130 / 414)) + ((3679 / 9.73) * (39 / 130)) - (1627 / 130)
118.729861 + 113.432682 - 12.5153846
219.647159
219.65

giriel

15-08-2011, 13:28

Hmm i dont really like that idea. Then the rating will be influenced by the amount of playtime. It would also require plenty of changes. Dont think that is completely what we want . Perhaps paul could shed some light upon the matter.

Neon

15-08-2011, 13:41

Scarhand

15-08-2011, 18:54

Hmm I pretty much quit ET due to an imperfect rating system (along with a lack of good populated servers). I'm glad this is being discussed.

I havn't read the entire thread, but isn't there also the problem with accuracy that it often bugs with weapons such as the m97 & poison?

It also bugs bad with shotguns (ive seen 10,000 acc before), shotgun hits and shots should not be included, but if someone only uses shotgun it will be hard to calculate their rate, this obviously needs worked on.
I remember seeing you high on the list, but you shouldn't quit because of rating systems. I don't play for rate, and this is one of my favorite games of all time. There is a lot more fun things than rating. Also, don't be afraid to contribute; what was wrong with the old rating system and what would you have changed?

Hmm i dont really like that idea. Then the rating will be influenced by the amount of playtime. It would also require plenty of changes. Dont think that is completely what we want . Perhaps paul could shed some light upon the matter.

It is influenced by playtime, but that is because it shouldn't be points and ppm, just a solid rate. If time was not split like I had it, it would mess up headshot and accuracy. I showed a stats example of a low playtime and calculated rate, ill do another one with long play time and see if they are far off if you want. I can't think of anything I want to change right now, but if you have ideas, go ahead.

ZeRo.X

15-08-2011, 21:33

not all active (good) raters have skill.

Paul, i'd love the new system, punish the rambo's / xp-whores ! :-)

Maybe you can make something like

*begin* - *max xp count of 4(just a random) medic / ammo packs for like 30(just a random number) sec* - after that it will count again, for again max 4(just a random number) packs. ONLY for dropping packs, revive, or fixing things is not whoring imho, its just your job depends of what your class is. But the other side is maybe that ppl only give max 4 (just a random number) packs.. but 4 packs is alot health + ammo i think ?

Manu

15-08-2011, 23:38

I think better keep it like that... i mean xp per minute.... now you want make new rate system and penalize also objective players who cares about rate. Maybe i didn't understand all the new system... i dont know ^^.

You just have in my opinion to explain what whoring is, make video if needed. Say that it's not allowed and disable rating when big proove are here.

Regards.

nrgy21

16-08-2011, 01:55

:edited:...

Spl@$h~

16-08-2011, 03:57

Please , dont go off topic , we decided to make that formula thread public to get suggestions about it .
If you wanna talk on how its gonna change or something else feel free to open a new thread , but dont start endless discussion on this one .
Useless post will be removed to keep this thread clean.
thanks .

assasin

16-08-2011, 09:16

hey till when this system will be taken into effect:eeks:

giriel

18-08-2011, 17:37

The system will be operational when we have solved some last issues, have changed the layout so this can be integrated, have a number of servers that want to cooperate with this and when we have a good rating formula ofcourse :)

I haven't had any new idea's but decided to make an application to ease the pain of testing a formula.

rateCalculator (http://filebase.trackbase.net/tools/RateCalculator.zip)

There is a readme and for additional questions you can always PM me (to keep this topic clean).
If you dont want to include certain variables place 0 in all fields.

I have tried your formula Scarhand and it gave way better results then mine !

Do you have any suggestions on the fact that heavy weapons do have a great advantages over other players (high damage_given, low damage_received, high hits)?

For others: The old system will stay active (see first post I think) this is just a formula for a new method that will co-exist with the old one.

Paul

18-08-2011, 19:07

You shouldn't include the maptime somewhere in those calculations, a rate is being calculated whereafter it's multiplied by 3600/maptime(seconds)

Scarhand

19-08-2011, 02:33

Just tried checking damage given really quick by headshots on a player and panzering a player. I got their HP in damage with smg, and at most 400 damage from the panzer! Heavy weapons do significantly more, hadn't realized this, thought it would only do their HP bar in damage, and panzers rarely miss too. Mortars probably do the same thing and you receive hardly any damage (not saying that it doesn't take skill to use a mortar). Perhaps the headshot ratio bonus needs strengthened? Still wondering what to do about glitch weapon accuracies too; there should be a 100% acc cap of course, but it still messes up the rating bad, and I'm wondering if some weapons should even be counted at all? I'll download that rate calculator when I have the time to try it.

@Paul, if you factor in maptime after calculating the rate, it means you are applying map length to all formula values, including ones that shouldn't, such as headshot ratio and accuracy. If those values diminish by a factor of your playtime, you are essentially making it so playing longer makes you do worse. That isn't good. If the system can't handle applying session length to only certain values, then it would make frag rating extremely difficult to calculate accurately.

[DIABOLIK]$mart

22-08-2011, 16:20

a new tracker which can connect to a server and fetch additional playerstats.

Hello, can you explain the difference with the old system ? In the 2 systems, who is the client and who is the server ?
I mean: in old-system, did you already connect directly to server IP, or did you connect to IDSoftware-masterserver IP ?

Thx in advance

giriel

22-08-2011, 18:06

In the old system there was a connection made with the server but not by a client.
Enemy Territory provided an additional method to get some basic information if you just "asked" the server for it.

This system does connect to a server for a short time and pretends to be a client and can fetch more detailed information.

Further information is classified :)

[DIABOLIK]$mart

22-08-2011, 18:21

OK, thanks.
In fact, I have problems on my home server, and watch a new upload bandwitdh stream, even when server is empty, growing to 900 kb/s !!!
Can I PM you, or I open a new thread ? (here it is for the "formula" - sorry)

In french: je comprends rien, à vide, mon server a un debit d'upload à 900 kbps, alors que par exemple, 1 joueur le fait monter à 10 kbps, 5-6 joueurs = 500 kbps.

Tests done with and without Punkbuster, OmniBots and jaymod 220 and chaos020

Paul

22-08-2011, 22:11

$mart;8240']OK, thanks.
In fact, I have problems on my home server, and watch a new upload bandwitdh stream, even when server is empty, growing to 900 kb/s !!!
Can I PM you, or I open a new thread ? (here it is for the "formula" - sorry)

In french: je comprends rien, à vide, mon server a un debit d'upload à 900 kbps, alors que par exemple, 1 joueur le fait monter à 10 kbps, 5-6 joueurs = 500 kbps.

Tests done with and without Punkbuster, OmniBots and jaymod 220 and chaos020

Please open up a new topic for this, but it's hard to believe this is caused by that ET server, the full TB server uses around 1,1MB/s so :)

giriel

23-08-2011, 00:14

To give this topic another boost:
Scarhands last suggestion:

((Damage_Given / Time_Played) * (Hits / Shots)) + ((Damage_Given / Time_Played) * (Headshots / Hits)) - (Damage_Received / Hits)

Remark made by Paul and myself : don't use the time inside of the formula because afterwards we want to multiply the achieved rate with (3600 / Time_Played) -> 3600 being the maximum time for which rate is given.

It took a while before I could understand your problem with this method Scarhand :)
The only difference between our 2 methods is the size of the result.
There is in no way a change within the accuracy or headshot ratio will occur -> this is because of the usage of a multiplication with the (Damage_Given / Time_Played) factor.

So when the (3600/Time_Played) factor is inserted in your formula but without your Time_Played we get the following:

(Damage_Given * (3600 / Time_Played) * (Hits / Shots)) + (Damage_Given * (3600 / Time_Played) * (Headshots / Hits)) - ((Damage_Received / Hits) * (3600 / Time_Played))

(also saw that you didn't add Time_Played at the Damage_Received side but I suppose that was a mistake?)

So this basically comes down to something similar but with a change in magnitude.

A proposition that was made by Paul :
Instead of punishing the use of heavy weapons, artillery or airstrikes we should increase the reward for using the proclaimed "skillful" weapons.
But the current formula doesn't really provide a way of doing this besides the (Damage_Received / Hits) factor.

As such we also need to create a list of weapons we want to include in the accuracy and headshot ratio calculation.

WANTED: new opinions (on topic), who knows perhaps providing the ultimate rating formula could give you some advantages :ninja:

Scarhand

23-08-2011, 02:01

Paul, would it be possible to just check to see if a specific weapon has acc > 100%? Any that does could just not have its hits and shots added, so glitched accs wouldn't be very problematic. What about conditionals for stopping divide by 0s?

Thanks for fixing up my formula giriel, I had forgotten time with Damage Received. I don't see what the 3600 is for, not all maps have that play length, but I guess I am just missing something, I don't know a whole lot about the system.

"we should increase the reward for using the proclaimed "skillful" weapons. "
Agreed. I had 400 damage with a panzer where I could only get an HP bars worth from smg; even with a 100% hs ratio, the panzer would get a better rate. Even doubling the headshot ratio bonus would leave the panzer with a large advantage, not even including the fact that the panzer is more accurate. There definitely needs to be either a much much larger headshot bonus or giving an alteration to the damage of specific weapons.
Altering the headshot bonus too much gives emphasis to only getting headshots, even if it means being extremely inaccurate and therefore not even doing much killing, although I guess multiplying it by damage helps with that. If I get time I'll try recording some stats and doing some tests, but I haven't had time in a long time.
I don't think damage can even be calculated separately for different weapons, and trying to alter it there would be complex and problematic. We will probably have to beef up the headshot ratio area.

Sorry I've forgotten this for a while.

killfreak

24-08-2011, 15:26

Scarhand

25-08-2011, 00:36

if throwing med packs and reviving doesnt count anymore you will get even more rambo medics dont forget that almost every rater plays medic and there arent much medics who dont rate. if it is just about damage given and recived i wont revive anyone tbh

My idea is to have two seperate ratings. One xp based, and one frag based. I gave reasons on my first post of this thread on why each is good and bad. The system is going to run a dual rating system anyway, and I think it would be best to keep it that way.

I hope people remember though that this is a team-objective game. Even if you had a high frag rating, you might not be able to stay in a scrim team. I think there needs to be more tournaments between scrim teams in ET to emphasize teamwork. Friendly clan scrims go on, but there needs to be more large tournaments full of skilled players, if someone could organize them. What if trackbase hosted some sort of tournament?

Shagileo

25-08-2011, 01:58

What if trackbase hosted some sort of tournament?

If there's enough interest, that would be cool - yea :)

Spl@$h~

25-08-2011, 12:51

giriel

25-08-2011, 16:03

The checking of those accuracies will need to be done manually.

Another problem is that NoQuarter, ETPub and Jaymod have some different weapons I originally planned to only use the basic ones for this calculation.
And I don't think there are any glitching weapons among those(not that I've seen though).

EDIT: For those zero values I would say if someone doesn't have at least 1 shot and hit we don't calculate it for this person.
Then those problems are solved as well.

Dupstep

26-08-2011, 19:42

May I ask how you know the kill and deaths value?
As the defualt config,the 1 kill should give you 3XP in Jaymod.
In ETPro its diffrent,sometimes 1XP,sometimes 2XP or sometimes even 5XP.
Depends.So the calculating will be wrong of counting kills&deaths.
And please,add the TZAC code to scanner code.

if (strlen($this->GetServerVariable('sl_sv_version'))>2) { $sf[] = 'slac'; $ac[] = 'slac'; }
if (strlen($this->GetServerVariable('ac_sv_version'))>2) { $sf[] = 'tzac'; $ac[] = 'tzac'; }

EDIT:
To prevent this kind effects.
Add the mod excepts.
So if it

switch($this->GetServerVariable('gamename'));
case 'jaymod' $calculatenr = '2';
case 'etpro' $calculatenr = '1';

And so on.

giriel

27-08-2011, 10:57

We get the information straight from the server.
It is not calculated based upon XP (which is not possible in my opinion :))

Your suggestion about the other anti cheat program will be taken into account, thanks for the suggestion.

Dupstep

27-08-2011, 14:20

It is not calculated based upon XP (which is not possible in my opinion :))

Its possible.
This needs full live player tracking then.

if($score=<"3")
addkd[getScore("$num". "$player")];
elseif($score>="3")
blockkd[getScore("$num". "$player")];
else
echo "";

The main problem is about the deaths calculating:P
Anyways,theres noway how to revice the kills/deaths via master.
This needs RCON.

giriel

27-08-2011, 14:29

There are multiple other factors that give experience to a player.
Some of these factors are considered whoring and for that reason we have created this system.
As such it's impossible to use the experience as a basis for calculation because you have no idea how he got the experience.

With this system it is possible to get that knowledge.
The system is already finished btw.
I'm perfecting it so when a good formula is found and some other decisions have been made it can get active upon the website in no time.

But this is going off topic again.

Dupstep

27-08-2011, 16:24

Seriously,its impossible.
Or if you have access to players stats table,what is "generated" after match...

giriel

11-09-2011, 17:15

To revive this once more.

Not everyone is too happy with the total ignorance upon the gathered XP by the current suggested formula.
Therefor I was thinking about including XP after all.

What if we created a formula that uses the gained XP per skill, with some skills having a maximum amount and multiply it by a factor created by using the variables we are already using.

=> XP * skillLevel

Scarhand

11-09-2011, 19:07

Yes indeed , there will be 2 different trackers system , the one we have actually will remains the same , maybe some stuff could be changed .
and the new one we are trying to do. Both will have their own system and will be independent.

We decided to do it that way because not all ppl are interested to get ranked based on frags/damages.

According to Splash, they will be using two systems simultaneously, as I suggested, so there is still value in xp. I don't see any way of improving the xp formula, there will always be a way to get non-legit xp gains, there isn't much you can do. No XP caps please.

As for the frag formula, unfortunately the different damage and accuracy of weapons throws off calculations considerably. The only place we could really nerf weapons individually is if we multiply their shot count by a factor (or divide hit count - same effect). Also, I just realized the damage received might be too small when divided by time and hits together. Too busy to look into this further right now, been much to busy lately.

Also, to correct some embarrassingly bad math on my part, you could not have to factor time into the original formula, because everything affected is divided by it anyway really. Taking out the time factor and doing some simplification, giriel's last formula is:

(Damage_Given * ((Hits / Shots) + (Headshots / Hits))) - (Damage_Received / Hits)

giriel

12-09-2011, 23:38

Yes I think that will be the formula used to determine the rating.
The weapons taken into account are the basic ones available within wolf:ET to keep all the mods unbiased.

Thanks for your help Scarhand, I'll check with the staff what reward can be given for your valuable work !!

epsi

8-10-2011, 23:47

any updates about this? When are go going to start this new rating method?

daredevil

9-10-2011, 01:24

When it's Ready :) ASAP!

Onni:]

9-10-2011, 08:59

I think you also should make a rating system where the rate goes to the chosen name, you can't put dots or anything to your name to avoid minus rating. It's stupid how many of players in top 50 might play 9/10 rounds a row with a dot in in their name because they are not doing good, then 1/10 of the games they manage to get rating. I mean, that doesn't tell anything about skill. Or it does and it means the player isn't really good :P. Not so many players in Top50 who can take also the minus but still stay there ^^

Paul

9-10-2011, 10:15

We have been testing the new tracker in the past days (as could have been seen on Twitter). We still face some minor problems but we hope to fix them asap and get it running :D

nrgy21

18-10-2011, 22:50

Would definitely be nice and I know others have been waiting for a while as well, especially with the conditions of the current system and many players who are in the high rankings who definitely don't belong. Hope so see the new tracker in action soon! :)

testforecho

20-10-2011, 12:31

Hi everybody,

this is my first post in the forum, I actually registered to write here because this new tracker idea is great, in the past years I played around a lot with etpro statistics taken from demos (ettv and not), I took statistics (with custom mods ofc, you can't do that without modding) like splitting damage in parts (1on1 damage, crossfire, sideshoot), calculating damage per second in fight (excluding prefire and gibbing). I must say that I like player stats.

I always knew it is impossible to calculate a player's skill from numbers, even though I got some consistent numbers there (for example damage per second in 1on1 ranging from 50-55 for low players to 75+ for highskill is pretty much consistent even in different maps, at least on etpro), and 1on1 damage ratio gives an accurate idea of a player technical (aim) skill if compared to his enemies, while crossfire+sideshoot damage ratio is more a tactical/teamplay skill index.

Of course I know that this new system is not a mod, so you can't do some things I did in my test mods, for example I had a table to calculate 1on1 damage (players who hadn't received damage from others in the last x seconds), had to make a dot product of player vectors to check if it was backshoot or not, etc. Knowing only stats is different. I just wanted to tell that I have a bit of background on the subject.

After reading all these posts in this thread I would like to share a couple of ideas, of course I am conscious it's all imho, after all I come from a different background and even if now I play jaymod and not etpro I'm not a rater, but I think this new system could make others interested in rating.

Coming to the point, about all those formulas, at first the most logical thing would be to look at damage. The problem is, on etpro (and I think most mods) if I have 1 hp and someone hits me with a panzerfaust, he gets 1hp damage given, on jaymod I think not, so damage on jaymod is *not* reliable, or heavy weapons users would get tons of points. Also I would give points for airstrikes and satchels, not arty because that is generally not 'skilled'.

Reading about headshots being used in formulas I frowned a bit, because if I kill someone with 50 acc and lots of bodyshots it doesn't mean that I'm less skilled than one who does lots of hs, but has an ubercrappy 30 accuracy, but if you take headacc and acc into account you can have a number telling you *how fast* that player gives damage when he shoots, for example if an hs is 2x a bodyshot (it's not, but it is an example), accuracy + headaccuracy would be proportional to damage/sec (well, there is prefire and all, but sort of), and who gives damage faster takes enemy hp first, and receives less damage than given because he kills the enemy first, so that could be a useful parameter.

Since headshots do slightly more damage than 2 times a bodyshots, accuracy(hits/shots) + headaccuracy(heads/shots) * somefactor, would give an account of how fast they give damage when they shoot (aiming skill). Well, provided that they are not penalized too much for preshooting, and taking into account that if one always backshoots he can have an amazing accuracy and still suck.

About total damage given, since damage is not reliable in jaymod you can roughly calculate it with hits and headshots, ignoring damage distance falloff (cannot be taken from stats) and assuming for example (mp40) 18hp for bodyshots and 40-50 for hs. This way you can separate heavy weapons damage from actual aiming skills.

For damage received, I see no other solution than looking at deaths, because of that ugly jaymod bug.

Plus maybe giving some points for xp. (Not from medipacks or ammo, maybe battle sense, reviving and engi xp, even my grand grand father can give medipacks to someone, that is not skill and it's not even team play in many cases, like, why the heck should I give medipacks at spawn to someone, he should selfkill and gtfo instead of asking for medic there with those freakin short spawntimes).

And, last but not least, I think these statistics should be compared only with teammates not enemies, because maps are not symmetrical, and teams could be stacked, so you must compare how well the player does if compared to his team mates, who play against the same enemies, and have the same problems with maps favoring axis or allies, makes no sense to compare someone with a player in another team.

atm I have no full formula of mine, maybe I will try one later,
sorry for the long post, I just wanted to give a couple of ideas, good luck with the new tracking system

mirqli

20-10-2011, 14:34

And, last but not least, I think these statistics should be compared only with teammates not enemies, because maps are not symmetrical, and teams could be stacked, so you must compare how well the player does if compared to his team mates, who play against the same enemies, and have the same problems with maps favoring axis or allies, makes no sense to compare someone with a player in another team.
Dunno about others, but this is exactly what I have been thinking too and this the way your performance should be compared to others. Almost without exception defending team makes more damage in total than the attacking one so this should be definitely considered too.

Le_Furet

21-10-2011, 05:47

I agree with the whole post of testforecho ;)

testforecho

21-10-2011, 11:14

Well probably they already decided how to make it by now :unsure:, but I guess making suggestions doesn't hurt.

Anyway:
Thinking about accuracy, damage and k/d, we must say that all stats are relative (to the skill of our enemies) but some are more stable.

For example if Goodplayer1 makes an 1on1 vs Goodplayer2 he will give and receive the same dmg, and have the same K and D. If Goodplayer1 then makes an 1on1 vs Noobplayer3 his K/D and damage ratio will improve dramatically, while his accuracy will be only a little higher, if not almost the same. Certainly not double.
So accuracy is closer to an 'absolute' skill index, pity that it can be faked by sparing bullets, so I would use it only as a 'bonus' or not use at all.

At the end of the day, and given that damage is bugged, I think the best way is to look at the good, old, kills and deaths, which has the additional benefit of being simple, after all if players have no idea about why they are getting a good or bad rating, they won't be happy.

To this frag-based score, which shouldn't be calculated for weapons like arty, mines, or mortar (you can frag even when you are not facing the enemy with those ones), that is, no kills and also *no deaths* from those weapons, I would add, as extra bonus, accuracy and a class/teamplay/xp score.

For accuracy bonus, it would be a little bonus based on that damage/second formula I posted before, or maybe even headshots per fight (that is hs/(kills+deaths) from light weapons only) for headshot statistics lovers (not me). But hs per fight boils down to hs/hits, so it's probably useless.

In the XP score you would have things like 'hits' for the weapon 'Syringe' (revives) (counted as 4XP each), and xp for Battle Sense, Engineering, Light weapons (but this is already taken into account with frags so better not) or any other thing that cannot be abused by whoring and not counted already.
Kills for arty/mortar/mines, which can account for being a good fops/engi/soldier, etc. and all those, er... 'nub' weapons not counted in the 'frag' score will give 3XP per frag and go together with the 'XP' score. This way you can have a sort of 'selective' XP score which doesn't take whoring into account, and is kept separate from frag score.

All these 3 (frag + bonus + xp) would be weighted with some factors and turned into a single number, then compared with teammates only, to encourage balanced teams instead of stacking.

edit:
best way would be to:
1. convert all light weapons kill amount to some 'pseudo XP' score, 4 points each kill (giving a little bonus (max +1) or penalty (at most -1) for headshots or accuracy in some way, but it should only affect delta scores not global, so it must be made in step 5).
2. give a negative score for all deaths from light weapons as above, but make it a constant -4 points or so per death.

Heavy weapons or nonstandard/nub/whatever weapons are not counted in points 1 and 2, neither kills nor deaths from these weapons go there.

3. take battle sense and engineering xp (only these, the rest has been handled already, or will be handled at point 4)
4. calculate the remaining xp, by using revives from weapon stats, and counting 3xp for each heavy weapons and other weapons kills (no rnade because it goes into engineering skill already)
5. from these 4 xp values calculate the deltas, and correct only the 'frag xp' delta with a factor for accuracy, this way you can range from 3xp to 5xp per frag (see point 1)
6. having xp deltas, sum them for total variation, and calculate ppm

hope I made no mistakes :)

giriel

21-10-2011, 14:31

testforecho

21-10-2011, 19:06

That seems a nice suggestion and takes away some issues encountered with the current solution.
I don't understand what you want to do with those delta's though.
Is it something like rewarding or punishing for a certain accuracy and headshot ratio?
Taking 75% or 125% of that total?
First of all, thanks for reading my (long) posts.

With deltas I just meant the difference in score between one sample taken and another, I don't know if you need a score per minute or not, but I wasn't much clear, you can just sum everything into a single score, I made it overcomplicated because I was sort of thinking out loud :).

About hs ratios and accuracy, I think that giving scores for frags already takes into account aiming skills, after all you need accuracy to get kills with light weapons, I don't know if it's useful to give an extra bonus for that. And accuracy is lower in fast shooting servers, so those players would be penalized.

I was thinking more about giving a little penalty for 'frag stealing', but for fragstealing you need to know damage per kill (to see if they kill people with few hp or full hp), and damage is not ok in jaymod, plus if you calculate damage from hits and hs, you should take adrenaline into account, and again that would be a difference between servers.
Since penalizing frag stealing is the same as giving a bonus for having a high damage per kill, and headshots are damage, and not affected by adrenaline, after all giving a bonus for headshots doesn't sound so bad.

If you want to take hs into account as an 'aim quality' bonus, and make it similar to the old XP system, you could just give 3 points per kill, and 1 point per hs, so someone giving 2hs per kill would get 5 points per frag.

Anyway, my general idea was converting all infos you have from weapon stats into a sort of XP value, add it to those XP scores which cannot be altered by whoring (battle sense, etc.), and with this total score doing the usual ppm, this way players would be more or less familiar with the way scores work.

giriel

22-10-2011, 18:53

That seems nice.
Too summarize:
- Add the team only comparison. -> Will need to insert some additional checks so that last minute team switchers aren't rewarded.
- Using those new xp values.
-> Light weapons will be :

WS_KNIFE, WS_LUGER,WS_COLT, WS_MP40, WS_THOMPSON, WS_STEN, WS_FG42, WS_GARAND, WS_K43.
These get 4 xp per kill, will lose 4 xp per death and will gain 1xp per headshot.
--> Syringe gets added with 4xp per hit.
-> Heavy weapons will be:

WS_PANZERFAUST, WS_FLAMETHROWER, WS_MORTAR, WS_AIRSTRIKE, WS_ARTILLERY, WS_SMOKE, WS_SATCHEL, WS_MG42
Get 3xp per kill.
-Take battle sense and engineering XP.
-Calculate the PPM's.

I have checked the ET source once more and they provide 5xp per headshot kill and 3 xp for a body shot kill with the so called light weapons.
The heavy weapons all get 3 except for the artillery(4xp) and satchel(5xp).

Therefor I don't think we'll need to change the battle sense or engineering xp since it will be of the same order of magnitude.
Although we subtract xp for deaths but I don't consider this as a major flaw for the moment.

If someone sees a major flaw or something that could be improved now is the time :)

testforecho

23-10-2011, 00:14

Seems balanced,

the only thing I can say is that with the old method deaths didn't give a penalty, so as it is now the light weapons part could gets less points if compared to the past, giving a higher weight to killing sprees (battle sense xp), which could also be obtained by camping, and heavy weapons + the rest.

But with 1 point per hs, 2hs per kill gives 6 points per frag, which is not bad and it could compensate for the deaths. You could add 0.5 or less points per (hits-hs) as well, but then there is the problem with adrenaline on (half damage) or off. I would say no but it could be an idea.

For the team switchers problems, can't the average score of team mates be taken on each sample, instead of all at once at the end?

I mean on every single sample you take, you store how many points a player did in that slice of time, and how many average points his team mates (those player who are in his team *at the time you checked*) have gained since the last check. Next check, those names could have changed if someone switched, but you are only taking a partial score, at the end you sum it all.

example (edited):

name(partial points gained since last check)

Player | team mates average
sample1 | +10 | name1(+6), name2(+5), average +5.5 --> store (+10, avg. team +5.5)
sample2 | +15 | name1(+3), anotherguy(+20), avg. +11.5 --> (+15, avg. team +11.5)
---------------------------------------
total | +25 | +17 average for his team mates

this way they could switch team at will, the only downside is that you can't show a clear endgame table with all this info for players to check the way their score was calculated

testforecho

23-10-2011, 10:01

If someone sees a major flaw or something that could be improved now is the time :)
Had to edit my previous post since I forgot to average team mates score, I was thinking about another potential problem,

Is the fact that scores can be negative ok? An average player who gets the same kills and deaths will get 0 points + headshots, someone who goes really negative in k/d could get a negative overall score, hopefully that won't be a problem when it comes to calculate score ratios...

Another possible critique of the system kills-deaths+hs is that it's based on the assumption that a score like 60/10 is worse than 100/30, which is not necessarily the case. That is, players are awarded for trying to fight as much as possible, quantity and not only quality (ratios).

A score like hs + fights*(k/d), that is heads + (kills+deaths)*(kills/deaths) would never be negative.

example:

| kills deaths hs oldscore newmethod
pl 1 | 100 30 200 480 633
pl 2 | 60 10 120 320 540
pl 3 | 20 60 24 -136 51
pl 4 | 50 50 75 75 175

of course this new one has to be calculated at the end only, since you don't know the value of (kills/deaths) until the end... since I don't know what's 'behind the curtains' I can't say how much of a problem that could be in your code/method

giriel

23-10-2011, 16:39

that ain't a problem with the current implementation.
I would add the other xp values as well though.
Seems to come out nicely :)

testforecho

23-10-2011, 19:01

that ain't a problem with the current implementation.
I would add the other xp values as well though.
Seems to come out nicely :)

good, sounds promising :)

hope you are not putting first aid, signals and covert ops xp in the mix though, or ppl will keep 'whoring' again... if I were you I wouldn't put them in the score, not even reduced by a factor, otherwise ppl would still be tempted to round up their scores that way.

But I think that was already agreed, reading last posts. Only engineering and battle sense, right?

edit:
so, which method will you use? the 4xp per kill -4xp per death one? I think that is the best because the last formula I've put can give funny results if deaths are too few, not to mention divisions by 0

.PG|monk

24-10-2011, 11:52

As i am reading this topic i see a lot of good idea's to improve the current ranking system. But none of you haven't thought about the issue between the difference in mods. So if you want to do it good, you should add a factor as well based on the mod that is running on that particular server. In this case im referring to the unbalanced rating system between mods like Jaymod & NQ for example. Because we all know that top Jaymod players will not have such high rate when they would play NQ instead. This "could" be fixed by implementing a Factor for the mod.

Theoretical;

Score in Jaymod score 403 points (22.39 ppm) 18.45 min * 0,8 = 17,47 (ppm)
Score in NQ 432 (17.38 ppm) 24.85 min
This is a score from player number 1 in ranking vs a top player in nq with a rate around 20. (you won't have them a lot higher)

On this way you can approach a more equal rating system. Of course the factor is the point of discussion, thats why i said theoretical.
I would like to share opinions with you if we should add a factor and what factor.

Edit1
Some other solution which is possible: make a ranking system for the different mods. Like a ranking list for Jaymod (based on scores at Jaymod servers only) and a ranking list for NQ (based on scores at NQ servers only)

Kind regards,
monk

giriel

24-10-2011, 18:27

Yes well you already presented the problem :)
We would need an elaborate collection of differences between the 2 mods which would require either the creators to help us out or the source being available.
I am afraid neither of those options are available at the moment.

For your second suggestion : that would be hard on the database.
We don't have the room to do it separately.

EDIT: testforecho to make my final decision about those formula's I'll create a matlab script to see how they will perform on whatever values I throw at them. But haven't got the time yet to do that :)

testforecho

24-10-2011, 22:09

It's hard to have a rating system which takes server differences into account. One possible way would be to have a server rating factor, and assume that if 2 ppl with the same colored name are playing in 2 different servers, then it's the same person, so their rating must be the same in both servers, for example:

EtplayerX plays on jaymod and he owns making scores 2 times better than the rest, then he plays with the same name in some etpro server and he gets his behind kicked, then the factor for that server would go up and the other down, with players getting a lower rating there. Eventually his points will become equal in both servers due to that factor.

I guess there would be lots of whining then :D plus you can't be sure if 2 different people are playing with the same name...

Anyway the difference in difficulty between different servers doesn't lie much in the mod used, but mainly in the players who are regulars there, and server settings which suit the taste of beginners or more experienced players, plus some unwritten rules in some servers (like, if one is a total noob he will be sometimes voted for kick, then the average server skill goes obviously up).

In my opinion it's all about this: you set the rules and the score for a game, then players will obviously figure out how they can get a higher score, and the solution could even be playing against people who are worse.
I think that stopping xpwhores and comparing points vs teammates only would be already a huge step forward. For the rest, it's a game, who is able to play better *that* game will get more points. That doesn't mean they can do better at other 'games' but if it takes skill, skill is still skill.

@giriel:
well for the other formula, (the one with kills/deats) the problem is that scores can skyrocket if someone manages to have only 1 or 2 deaths, let alone 0, it would be a division by 0.
If I collect some more data with /statsall I could try other formulas myself, but I am sure that you know what you're doing :)

giriel

29-10-2011, 13:06

Ok I have ran some tests and actually got the values that I expected.
If you are interested I can show you the graphs :)

So indeed your formula rises exponentially, that is because if you work a bit with that formula:
heads + (kills+deaths)*(kills/deaths) you get this :
heads + (kills²/deaths + kills)
That square is annoying so I removed it.
As a result I get : heads + (kills/deaths + kills)
And this does give me nice results and it doesn't have the problem of going negative(which is risky).
Perhaps not fully as you had intended but now we have no problems with mathematical behavior.

now we have to make some changes to the database and I'll start implementing this.

carnage

29-10-2011, 14:36

testforecho

29-10-2011, 15:45

Ok I have ran some tests and actually got the values that I expected.
If you are interested I can show you the graphs :)

Why not, if that is not a problem it could be interesting :)

Wait, so this new system is going to be mainly headshot-based? Not that I can complain (my hs:kill-rate is ~2.5:1 on Jay/ETpub :unsure:), but I am just wondering.
Well, one negative thing we can say about headshots is that with some weapons it's harder to get them (engi rifle) but generally raters don't play that class.
And also one could say that hits are important too.

But imho that formula looks good, as it gives you points for 3 things:
1. kills - you have to make many kills (this is the same as the old system)
2. headshots - you need to aim well, plus you don't get many heads if you just fragsteal, which is good. Adding hits too would be cool, but unluckily with adre bodyshots make half damage, I think headshots are the best thing if you want similar results in different servers (adre on/off, fast shooting on or off)
And also, the old xp system gave 5xp for a kill with hs (in some servers) which means hs counted even before.
3. kills/deaths - (maybe kills/(deaths+1), to avoid divisions by 0?) counts kills again, so they weight more than hs, but this time you also need to avoid dying too much.

All in all I think this can't be improved easily with the stats we have (and given that damage cannot be used), plus if you read the previous posts this would be only the 'light weapons' score, to this you add battle sense XP and other things.

giriel

29-10-2011, 15:57

Ah pff forget my post :)
When doing that formula you don't get enough rewards for high amount of kills.
And the difference between low and high ratio gets cancelled by the amount of headshots.

So I am back at the first formula you suggested.
Some things I was thinking about:
- if the kills/deaths/headshot formula go negative round it to 0.
- set in a penalty of -1 for deaths by heavy weapons.
- round the total to zero again if necessarily.
-> What about covert ops? Was thinking about giving half the covert ops xp to make sure whoring with this is useless.

testforecho

29-10-2011, 16:04

Ah pff forget my post :)

hehe, I answered too soon as well ;) I later noticed that k/d is a very small number and doesn't influence the final result much, I was trying it by parsing with a script some /statsall I did. Now I was playing around with the formula a bit, in such a way that it won't give results too much different than 5*kills.

For -1 heavy weapons I'd say no, being killed by arty can be bad tactics (running into arty) but if there is much spam I don't think we should penalize players for it, sometimes it's random, not to mention mortar kills.
For the covert ops, if you think people won't abuse it... you want to reward them for mines spotting, or?

giriel

29-10-2011, 16:22

Ok true those are some valid reasons.
Hmm k for covert ops nvm, mine spotting isn't something I would rank as being skilled or overly useful for objectives.
Now for those graphs I'll give it a go :p
So here we have the original formula with giving 4xp for kills, -4 for deaths and 1 for headshot.
I just looped over kills(1 to 200),deaths (1 to 100) and headshots (1 to 300). See below this picture for further info.
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w175/giriel/original.png

Now I have zoomed a bit. You can see 3 arrows.
The red one : indicating the kills gradually increasing (for every amount of kills I looped over all deaths and for all deaths I looped over all headshots).
Thus making the rate increase.
The green one indicating the deaths increasing thus the rate needs to decrease.
The black one indicating the headshots increasing the rate when you do plenty of those.
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w175/giriel/original_zoom.png

Now if we look at the ratio formula:
We don't have those clear relations anymore and the image becomes more messy.
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w175/giriel/ratio.png

Now I zoomed a lot and what we see is that the headshots are way to dominant.
You don't see any change by the deaths and only a small change with respect to the kills.
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w175/giriel/ratio_zoom.png

testforecho

29-10-2011, 16:52

Interesting, I am still not sure if penalizing deaths is really needed, since in order to have many kills you already need to die few times (respawn time, etc.) and more deaths also mean less killing sprees and less xp for battle sense. The fact that you have more data if compared to the past doesn't mean that you necessarily need to use them all if the formula is not an improvement, anyway if you give too much negative points for deaths, average players (same K and D), will end up getting 0 points.

If we assume 1hs = 2 bodyshots, and we ignore the difference in damage between weapons (which is assuming a lot of things :) ), hits + hs would be proportional to damage given, I don't have enough data to guess the average (hits+hs) needed per kill, should be around 10 in adrenaline servers.
So making (hits+hs) / 10 should be of the same order of magnitude as kills, what about:

points = ((hits + hs) / 10 + kills) * 2.5

and ignore deaths, or maybe give just a -1 for light weapon deaths? This way it would have the benefits of both worlds (high damage, that is no kill stealing and many frags, that is being able to 'finish the job')

What worries me when you take damage into account is the difference between adrenaline on/off servers, because you need to deal more damage with adre on.

carnage

29-10-2011, 17:06

I wasn't around since the beginning of this topic, so I'm a little confused and I don't know if what I am about to say was already mentioned.

Imo, even if the ranking was based on stats and weapon usage, there still should be a small/limited XP component for people who actually take time to help (in this case I do NOT mean handing out med/ammopacks, spotting mines or stealing uniforms) their teammates with their class skills. Or else you might as well call it "global rambo ranking". Sure, it will make nerds wet, but this game is team-based even if we all generally play for frags on Jaymod. And the whole thing should be relative to the team I'm in. If I'm in the weaker team and I struggle to get the same stats as the stacking rater(s) in the other team, does this necessarily mean I am a worse player? It'll never be repeated enough.

Just my 2 cents.

testforecho

29-10-2011, 17:20

I wasn't around since the beginning of this topic, so I'm a little confused and I don't know if what I am about to say was already mentioned.

I will summarize the recent posts 4 you...
the score will be probably made of:
- light weapons score (that's the one we are talking about now)
- xp that can't be gained by whoring (battle sense, engineer) + heavy weapons kills * 3xp each + revives * 4xp each (no medi packs, ammo or uniforms)

I don't know if this is confirmed, but probably points will be compared with players *on the same team* so stacking won't count anymore.

About team play, I know that it is important but we are reading stats here, tell me how can you tell if someone is good in teamplay by looking at stats, if he/she doesn't play in a scrim team. Giving packs at spawn is team play? Let's face it, many players (probably me included) don't know how to really play their classes (take field ops for example, all wasting arty, medics reviving people who were about to selfkill without looking at the spawntime, etc. etc.).

giriel

29-10-2011, 17:48

I understand your concerns completely :)
But those are indeed taken into consideration.
We are going to compare the stats on a per team basis and we keep on using battle sence and engineering xp.

Good suggestion again echo.
I like to play with such things to find some potential improvements >.<
If you look at this image : left side is yours, right side is me changing the variables.
To make kills less dominating, because hits and headshots should get a descent amount of importance.
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w175/giriel/removingDeaths2.png

So this ain't making my job any easier :D
Are you going to keep the best idea's for last ? :P

carnage

29-10-2011, 17:48

I will summarize the recent posts 4 you...
the score will be probably made of:
- light weapons score (that's the one we are talking about now)
- xp that can't be gained by whoring (battle sense, engineer) + heavy weapons kills * 3xp each + revives * 4xp each (no medi packs, ammo or uniforms)

I don't know if this is confirmed, but probably points will be compared with players *on the same team* so stacking won't count anymore.

About team play, I know that it is important but we are reading stats here, tell me how can you tell if someone is good in teamplay by looking at stats, if he/she doesn't play in a scrim team. Giving packs at spawn is team play? Let's face it, many players (probably me included) don't know how to really play their classes (take field ops for example, all wasting arty, medics reviving people who were about to selfkill without looking at the spawntime, etc. etc.).
I know what you mean, but we both know that a system which is totally frag-based would be the death of ET (at least from a public server POV). Would you enjoy playing in a team full of medics that will never even bother reviving their teammates? There's already enough free-for-all style rambos out there and we don't need any more of them in this game. I also like people who give me ammo when I don't have any, but I understand very well that the whoring issue makes it impossible to count that for the rating (wish it could be limited, at least).

What I mean is that this new system shouldn't push people to the point that they will not care about anybody or anything, except their frags. Therefore, I think a minimum of teamplay should be taken into account and no, this isn't to defend myself or anything, as I think there surely is plenty of better teamplayers than me out there.

Anyway, speaking of engineer XP. Don't you think that could be used for whoring too (the second part of this (http://forum.trackbase.net/threads/733-Chl3p*-amp-Exx-o-FrAGMOVIE-by-WH-Team-amp-WHTF-WH-Team-Strikes-AGAIN!) is a perfect example)? Isn't there a way to limit the counting of class XP per minute? Because it would be needed for engineer.

And lastly, I think arty should count as a heavy weapon. Airstrikes involve sense of timing and positioning, while anybody could kill with arty (it only takes a little bit of luck).

giriel

29-10-2011, 17:52

Hmm seems my posts take too long to write :D

Arty is already in heavy weapons.
There is battle sence and engineering xp for teamplay, and perhaps we could limit them but to what?
Syringe revives for the revive part.

testforecho

29-10-2011, 18:50

Anyway, speaking of engineer XP. Don't you think that could be used for whoring too
sure, actually anything could be whoring, you could even play in a server with friends and kill them to get xp for frags, no system is 'whoring-proof'
I'm not sure about what you think is the best way then, we say frags and you say it is bad, we say xp and you say whoring... I'm a bit confused...

About rambos, what do you find on average non-etpro servers?
- raters
- players who play for fun/to kill some time
- players who play for other things than objectives (testing mouse setup, playing for acc/training/damage/whatever, trying to find and kill that player who just insulted them, you name it )
- players who think they play for obj, but they are actually not helping their teams because they don't know how to play for obj.
- players who play for obj and they know how to do it, but wait, obj without stopwatch makes no sense so...

According to you nobody would care anymore about revives, etc. because of Trackbase. Is it realistic? I will keep reviving as usual, and as usual I won't give ammo or packs to people if they can selfkill or if they are going to die in 1 sec anyway.

but, enough blabbering :), do /weaponstats and see the kind of stats you can read from the game, then (taken into account that damage in jaymod is bugged and cannot be used) please suggest a way to calculate a score.

mirqli

29-10-2011, 22:55

I highly doubt that a new rating system will affect the gameplay on servers in any way. First of all I think it's like 1/3 of jaymod players that are aware of this site and the rating system, rest are just playing for fun and don't know about things like whoring and rating.

Talking about helping your team, teamplay on jaymod sucks nowadays anyway and has always sucked, it's like 1/10 chance that you will get revived on jaymod, I personally just tapout instantly when I get killed on jaymod because it'll take more time from someone to revive you than run from the spawn to the same exact place. I don't know if it's because people don't care about their team or do they just suck too hard to revive. I personally do revive my teammates on jaymod when it's needed (depends on the respawn time and the situation) and I have played for rating, I know how the system works and it doesn't make me a rambo medic who doesn't revive anyone. Rambo medics will always exist no matter if there is a k/d based rating system or no rating system at all, people enjoy playing for themselves, trying to frag the whole team alone and get called pro, hacker and stuff.

In my opinion this new rating system could only enhance the teamplay on public servers. I mean it's useless to whore then and people will help with the obj a lot more than by just standing in the spawn handing out ammos even when they're just running around killing, they are atleast doing something then.

In my opinion it's funny when people on jaymod are raging at their team trying to get them help with the obj and there is like 2 guys on a 30 man team who agree with playing for the obj. I personally don't see any point in playing for obj on jaymod, ETPro is for competitive gaming and jaymod for fun and a new rating system won't change this. Just go to ETPro if you like to play for obj seriously as a team, you can't rambo there...

Chicha

1-11-2011, 14:08

wow sounds great , great work to all who were part of this ! i dont really care about rating anymore , but i am going to try the new tracker for sure ! do whatever you guys think its best , i just came here to say thanks to you guys for doing such great work

HellfiG

7-11-2011, 10:56

taken into account that damage in jaymod is bugged and cannot be used
What do you mean?
Never noticed it before.

@ Paul: Can't wait to see new Rate system go online!

TerrorTom

7-11-2011, 21:25

@HellfiG: This bug only occurs when you analyize player stats. It seems it will always count full damage with heavy weapons even if the enemy had less hp.

[...] The problem is, on etpro (and I think most mods) if I have 1 hp and someone hits me with a panzerfaust, he gets 1hp damage given, on jaymod I think not, so damage on jaymod is *not* reliable, or heavy weapons users would get tons of points. [...]

Le_Furet

9-11-2011, 04:22

Nice giriel and testforecho. :)

narcoticInfluence

9-11-2011, 18:28

hello i think i found some bug ;)

http://et.trackbase.net/index.php?mod=sessioninfo&idx=30462709

Kills death
1597 840

i believe error is very good player but this is kinda impossible :D

giriel

9-11-2011, 19:49

That is already an old session.
The problem is already resolved. :)

mirror

10-11-2011, 05:53

cool stuff finaly we waited since 2006 this k/d @
now we can see who is good in shootin and whos is good in throwing packs loloolo

Onni:]

11-11-2011, 08:14

K/D rating system sounds good, but as somebody already mentioned, friends can just go to a empty server and let the other guy just raise his K/D. I'm a little worried about that :/

Maybe you can set up some kind of limit like min. 5 vs 5 to get K/D?

giriel

11-11-2011, 10:29

This K/D is just a showcase of what is possible with the new tracker.
Therefor such actions will not be taken, you can always check the session yourself and see if he really did a good job (by comparing his stats to others).

The new rating formula will have the same flags as the old one so that shouldn't be a problem normally :)
But no system is perfect against abuse . :(

Patriot

11-11-2011, 11:07

and a rating system is good because offfffff???????

who cares who shots the best, its the fun on TS while playing that counts imo

anyway it nice to see that ppl still put some effort and work into my fav game :) thx

Planet Pannett

11-11-2011, 11:30

To bad you cant track who did the most of the objectives

giriel

11-11-2011, 12:22

Well we are a rating site after all :)
And indeed it's too bad we can't see stuff like that.
Learning which team has won the map would be nice as well.

But that won't be possible.

gullygaza

6-12-2011, 18:06

sure, actually anything could be whoring, you could even play in a server with friends and kill them to get xp for frags, no system is 'whoring-proof'
I'm not sure about what you think is the best way then, we say frags and you say it is bad, we say xp and you say whoring... I'm a bit confused...

About rambos, what do you find on average non-etpro servers?
- raters
- players who play for fun/to kill some time
- players who play for other things than objectives (testing mouse setup, playing for acc/training/damage/whatever, trying to find and kill that player who just insulted them, you name it )
- players who think they play for obj, but they are actually not helping their teams because they don't know how to play for obj.
- players who play for obj and they know how to do it, but wait, obj without stopwatch makes no sense so...

According to you nobody would care anymore about revives, etc. because of Trackbase. Is it realistic? I will keep reviving as usual, and as usual I won't give ammo or packs to people if they can selfkill or if they are going to die in 1 sec anyway.

but, enough blabbering :), do /weaponstats and see the kind of stats you can read from the game, then (taken into account that damage in jaymod is bugged and cannot be used) please suggest a way to calculate a score.

you're saying you don't find this on etpro-servers? you simply mentioned nearly every motivation to play that game, except wars/scrims/competition :D

vsp knows which team won..

Patriot

7-12-2011, 08:30

To bad you cant track who did the most of the objectives

Working on implementing somthing like this for our servers --> http://et.qubenet.net/etstats/index.php?do=awards

so when you have serverlogs its possible :)

testforecho

7-12-2011, 13:00

you're saying you don't find this on etpro-servers? you simply mentioned nearly every motivation to play that game, except wars/scrims/competition :D

vsp knows which team won..
Nice, you've read the whole thread, since that post is quite old... :D that post was about 'it's not true that with the new rating system nobody will revive anymore, etc.' I just pointed out that not everyone plays for rate.
Why I said 'average non-etpro servers' then? Just because we were talking about rating, and on etpro servers nobody rates as far as I know. Not for other reasons. (And maybe since I used to play much (actually only) etpro in the past (but not officials) I am still biased :love:)

If you give a higher score to players in the winning team, then everyone will try to join the stronger team and leave the noobs, in general nobody wants to lose score because of someone else, unless they are their 'real' teammates (meaning not just public randoms). This happens with fragging too, I know, but if rating is individual then you have to rate individual skill.

and objectives give xp, so they are counted as well.

enable

28-12-2011, 12:01

When it will be enabled? or is it already enabled ? haha

Paul

28-12-2011, 12:08

When it will be enabled? or is it already enabled ? haha

It's partly enabled, but there are still some tiny problems that need to be fixed before it can be introduced on many more servers.

testforecho

25-01-2012, 15:47

If you guys think it could be perfected then I am open to suggestions :)
But please use this topic for such discussions : http://forum.trackbase.net/threads/723-OFFICIAL-W-ET-Discussion-new-rating-method
so, first of all sorry for spamming the other thread,

the only 2 things I could suggest, given that I think the current formula is more or less valid, and it could be kept as it is, would be:

1. fix the headshot factor in such a way that it reflects more closely the real difference in damage between bodyshots and hs, which is not 1/2
(make it hits +headshots*something, let's say 1.2 to 1.5)

2. tweak the score from battle sense down a bit. If you are awarding people for killing, and giving damage (hits+heads), no need to award them twice for surviving and making killing sprees, because as I see it now, some raters just do this:
- r*pe some nub
- hide/camp and wait for battle sense
- repeat and profit
(no offense meant)

Imho if you reduced battle sense by some factor, let's say 50%, you would reward more those players who have the guts to actually go ahead and fight, instead of camping in the same place to wait for battle sense.

Scarhand

25-01-2012, 23:07

The whole point of TB is rating, so it is imperative to try to get it to be as accurate as possible, not disregard things even if miniscule. More and more servers will use the system now that it is fully implemented, and I have been trying to get more servers to, so the discussion should always be open to make the system more accurate.

(((headshots + hits) / 5) + kills) *1.5 + engixp + battlesense + revives*4

Testorecho's points:
1. As I brought up, hs worsens rating rather than improves it. Afaik, the sten has the greatest difference in hs and bs damage. Without helmet, the ratio of hs damage to bs damage is 25/7 or about 3.57 times as much, and drains health that much faster but only has twice as much rate per hit. It may be a bit miniscule, but once kills start adding up, the effect will make a difference. Because it drains health up to 3.57 times as much, the point value per person needs to be raised more than that to justify including headshots at all. Probably (hs*3+hits)

2. I'm not sure about how much battle sense is gained on average during a match, so I can't really comment on if it is overly strong or not.

To bring up some questions. How does the hit counter work in regards to a weapon such as a flamethrower? Doesn't jaymod count hits on downed/revivable players, I know NQ does not.

Really, I don't have a lot of problems with the system. The developers did a good job making it. It isn't as easy to cheat for rate like doing +attack in spawn with packs and afk rating. Good work developers!

testforecho

26-01-2012, 10:44

The whole thing about hits and hs was brought up because in jaymod (very common mod for rating) damage given and received is not reliable (gives full weapon damage instead of enemy hp, for example with arty, panzerfaust, etc. unlike etpro)

So it was an attempt to guess the damage given from hits and hs, and I agree that it should be made on a per-weapon basis, even though there are some issues (adren vs non adren, akimbos vs single pistol) that can't be solved, for example if I kill someone with single pistol I could be pro, with akimbos, well...

Custom factors for every weapon could make it more realistic, or we could tell jaybird to fix that freaking damage nonsense and not rate all servers with those bugged jaymod versions :D (not a good idea)

- As regards battle sense, it gives you 8xp every 45 seconds (45000 milliseconds in et source code, wrongly put as 30 seconds in et manual) if you killed someone and received some damage (also there are less points for other situations)
8 xp in 45 seconds is 10.7 in 1 minute, that could be half the ppm for someone with 20ppm, so it used to be a very important factor and we should ask ourselves if we want a clone of the old system (but more resource-hungry) or something really different.

I don't know if surviving for 45 seconds is skill, I can kill someone (and receive damage), then I go camp till the 45 seconds are over, and there I have an extra 8 points... or I can keep attacking and kill another one and die... too bad... 2 kills but way less points (do the maths and see!)
That's why I said remove it or reduce it a lot and when I say a lot, I mean around 10 times smaller. 8 points just for doing 'nothing' after you kill is a huge amount

- As regards the flamer, that's a heavy weapon, so it's counted in heavy weapons xp only if you kill and not if you damage. It can stay as it is imho

- For the hits, on etpro for sure you 'hit' only if your enemy is alive, and jaymod is like that I think, anyway it's fairly easy to check.

so maybe a thing like:
weaponfactor = 1.5 or so, changes with weapon to reflect headshot/bodyshot damage
(((headshots*weaponfactor + hits) / 5) + kills) + engixp + revives*4 + battlesense*0.15 <<-- remove that battlesense bs, or keep it with some really low factor

Belo

26-01-2012, 12:19

Might be off topic but ..
How come it ain't working for FA Jay1?

Sapientia

26-01-2012, 15:10

was thinking the same dude that server has to be the most popular server and it doesnt have it. :<

giriel

26-01-2012, 18:50

We don't make those decisions ourselves, that's up to the server owners :)

For the suggestions:
- at the moment hits are counted for every weapon, but indeed flamer was a problem so that weapon has it's hits reduced .
- the kills are only the light weapons.

The suggestions seem reasonable to me, if we can find a good compromise for the factor/weapon I will add it.
So we need :
- sten
- mp40 / thompson
- garand / k43-rifle
- luger, colt
- fg42

testforecho

26-01-2012, 19:43

So we need :
- sten
- mp40 / thompson
- garand / k43-rifle
- luger, colt
- fg42

luger and colt deal the same damage per bullet as mp40 and thompson

- standard ET damage for bodyshots (doesn't take into account damage falloff for long range fights, helmet protection, adrenaline):
luger/colt/mp40/thompson: 18hp
sten: 14
fg42: 15
eng. rifle: 34

(Sniper deals more damage but you can't see from /weaponstats if it's sniper or engi rifle unless I'm totally mistaken. Same for fg42.)

Headshot is 2*bodyshot, but if it's below 50 then it's forced to 50. So it's 50 for every weapon, but for engi rifle is 68

((hits-hs)*bodyshotdamage + hs*headshotdamage)*0.01 would do the trick (1 point for 100hp of damage, 1.5 if you kill a medic)

p.s.
please think about that battle sense stuff I said, imho that's an easier and more important fix than this, of course I cannot force anything on you guys

Scarhand

26-01-2012, 22:21

Also forgot to mention, damage is reduced with distance, as well as hs damage to bs damage being drastically reduced:

Range Bodyshot Headshot (w/ helmet) Headshot (w/o helmet)
Close 18 40 50
Medium 9-18 10-40 10-50
Far 9 10 10

MP40 for example. But if you really are using damages for the formula like the one testforecho just posted, it shouldn't be an issue.

Battle sense rules are as follows (if testforecho is right about the timing thing):
2 XP if you inflict damage on enemies within 45 seconds
5 XP if you inflict and receive damage within 45 seconds
8 XP if you kill and receive damage within 45 seconds

Obviously the 8xp is most likely, but you have to consider that you will sometimes receive less and not always see action. You have to consider that surviving does take skill, but the punishment is already given (actually depending on the maps spawntimes and locations). But say we use 8 every time, because we don't know how it turns out always, that is 40 possible xp gains for a 30min map, 8*40 is 320 per map. Say someone got all body shots the whole map, that takes about 8 per kill. If using hits to calculate, that battle sense gain is equal to about 40 kills! Far too much. It does need to be reduced.

giriel

27-01-2012, 00:50

good then it will be done, tomorrow I will start with updating it all :)

testforecho

27-01-2012, 10:44

- as regards battle sense seconds, in et source code it says 45000 milliseconds (45 sec) if jaymod changed that I can't say, don't think so, but it should be easily checked if you want I'll check, but I think we can safely assume they left it as it was.

- for damage: yes there is damage falloff, but you cannot calculate the distance of the hits, remember it's like /weaponstats. Damage falloff starts from 1500 units (a medium/close range fight is about 300units). I think we can assume that damage is full in most fights.

- Helmet reduces damage by 20% (80% of original damage, so from 50hp to 40) but again we don't know from weaponstats, let's assume helmet is off, to please headshot lovers and make it easier :p

Talking about battle sense, in my opinion that bonus should be at most equal to half a kill, otherwise it's not just a bonus, waiting cannot count more than fragging an enemy

-------------------------
to summarize:
1. calculate damage from hits and hs
I don't wanna write a novel to say my reasons, since my posts are already so long :P but considered that rifle is rarely used, and sten is harder to use than mp40 due to overheating, so its lower damage would penalize it, we don't really need a weapon table, but using a 'standard' 18hp for bodyshot and 50 for hs would be realistic enough, and easy to implement. Or make a table if we want to be more precise.
damage = (hits-hs)*18 + hs*50

now we have:
damage, kills, xp (engi, revive, heavy weapons, battle sense)

the point is now, how to balance?
some real data would be useful here, like some good rater kindly doing /weaponstats before and at the end of a good match, I ain't no superstar so I cannot use my stats, low+ max :D or Giriel can take them from the database I don't know

Let's estimate how much points per minute you generally get from these things, and balance them according to the skill actually needed to achieve them. Atm up to 10 ppm for battle sense is way too high. Surviving takes skill only if you are fighting, not if you play more defensively to get the points for battle sense after a fight.

Spl@$h~

27-01-2012, 10:54

Damn , you guys are amazing thanks again for your participation
Always though it was 30 secs for battle sense and never thought that ET was taking distance into account for damages values

giriel

27-01-2012, 11:48

testforecho

27-01-2012, 12:11

I have looked at the possibilities and forgot that we cannot give a factor for every weapon since all light weapons are saved together.
So that's not possible, I will try to gather some stats that you could work with.
(seems that at the moment also the heavy weapon kills are added, forgot about that as well:).)
No big deal, then just take 18hp and 50 for headshots. Actually 18*3 = 54, lets take a hs = 3 bodyshots to account for the extra difficulty, and take care of adren and rifle too?
so: hits + hs*2
will count hs 3 times

A kill should give about 5points (damage included) for continuity with the old system, and battle sense weakened to about 2.5 points at most (half a kill, this is my view of course. You got a kill? Already rewarded, why should you be rewarded again? For waiting?)

that would make (in bold the changes from the old one you sent):
(((headshots*2 + hits) / 8) + kills) * 2.5 // roughly 5 points per kill
+ kills heavy weapons * 3
+ revives * 4
+ engineering xp
+ battle sense xp * 0.3 // maybe 0.25

p.s.
confirmed 45 seconds on jaymod 2.2.0, just checked

giriel

27-01-2012, 12:33

darn testforecho :)
Looks great and logical in my opinion, will change it now.
If any of you guys still want to change something do tell ! This is easily done.

Am looking at the possibilities for the xp calculation/team.

orDian

27-01-2012, 12:50

From Testforecho (((headshots*2 + hits) / 8) + kills) * 2.5 // roughly 5 points per kill

140hp with helmet
3 headshots
3*2+3 = 9
9/8+1 = 2.125
2.125*2.5 = 5,3125

8 body hits
0*2+8 = 8
8/8+1 = 2
2*2.5 = 5

Not rewarded for even aiming at the head.

120hp with helmet
3 headshots
3*2+3 = 9
9/8+1 = 2.125
2.125*2.5 = 5,3125

7 body hits
0*2+7 = 7
7/8+1 = 1,875
1,875*2.5 = 4,6875

A bit rewarded for making headshots.

156hp with helmet
3 headshots 1 body hit
3*2 + 4 = 10
10/8 + 1 = 2.25
2.25 * 2 = 5,625

9 body hits
0*2 + 9 = 9
9/8+1 = 2.125
2.125*2.5 = 5,3125

Dont feel like bashing some heads.

Scarhand

27-01-2012, 13:03

With a sten, the hs is still worse than all bodyshots because sten hs damage ratio to bs damage ratio is 3.57. That half point adds up as the number of fights goes up; it might be significant.

What about knife kills? Backstabs= less hits. Maybe a miniscule thing for knife kills?

giriel

27-01-2012, 13:14

If you guys think it is important we can split up the weapons and save them separately.
I must say Ordian has a point as well, we'll keep it open for now then.

Some results I gathered already (is kinda hard because it gets deleted after every map :))
OldXp eng+bat kills deaths hits head heav revives
10 minutes fastshooting: 31279 6240 33 7 284 41 1 0 => 26 (260 xp) (44/7 eventually)
25 minutes fastshooting: 31749 6326 89 29 765 164 0 0 => 20.6 (515 xp) (93/30 eventually)
30 minutes fastshooting: 32302 1969 102 33 804 176 0 8 => 23.2 (696 xp) new formula

testforecho

27-01-2012, 17:31

@orDian:
For me (I can't read other people's minds) the hits and hs thing was made as a way to figure out damage given
And this, because kills can be 'fragsteals' so I wanted in my formula to reward players who kill enemies having full hp, and not just finishing their team mates work.
It wasn't meant (by me, don't know others again) as a 'headshot score', actually I wouldn't even have put hs in my formula if jaymod damage wasn't bugged in the first place.

So, from my point of view, I can answer to your 'Dont feel like bashing some heads' this way:
1. For me, that is just a way to calculate damage given, since awarding points for headshots just because 'they are skilled' makes no sense.
2. In a game you make a hundred kills, not one. So you talk about 3hs, but you cannot make 3hs for 100 kills not even if you cheat. It's the average that counts, and that average should show your damage given (hence the number 8, I considered an average of 1hs and 6 bodyshots. 1*2+6 = 8)

@Scarhand:
as it is now sten would give more points, but I'm elaborating the formula to take care of adrenaline because I discovered a huge flaw in that case

@Giriel:
Checking those stats, and trying to balance adrenaline servers atm. Separate weapon table would be cool, but if it's too much work, then let's see what we can think of

giriel

27-01-2012, 17:50

yea adrenaline isn't considered at the moment.
I have discussed the issue with Paul and he has allowed me to use more space in the database !

What I stored at the moment : engibattlexp - kills - deaths - hits - headshots - kills_h - revives. Now next to this you are free to add around 10 new things, that you can decide. So it is possible to split up the weapons now!

So tell me what you want to see stored.

testforecho

27-01-2012, 17:58

hmm, as regards that adrenaline thing, imho there is no way out, because adrenaline halves damage (but not damage from headshots).

That means in practice that if you play in a server with adren, you need always more hits to kill somebody, so you will always get more points.
Of course, your points are then compared to all the other players in the server, so the effect is not so noticeable because you get more, they get more too, but it is an unbalance that could lead to an advantage for some servers.

The only solution I can think of is counting only damage coming from hs, orDian would be happy :P
let me think a bit, now that I saw your last post. What do you think about this adrenaline problem?

giriel

27-01-2012, 19:28

testforecho

27-01-2012, 21:29

Well I am biased in that matter since I find adrenaline a nuisance. :)
So I would like to "punish" it's usage by for example multiplying that factor 8 with (#adren shots / (playtime*0.5)) because then you surely are abusing that, playtime in minutes then. (a minimum of 1 is required, don't want to go below 8).
As such you still can use adrenaline without a problem, only not too often.
hehe, didn't know you can count adren shots, but take into account that in some servers with fast charge almost all fights are with adrenaline, so it's more a feature than an advantage there.

It's obvious that a player who gives more hs has an advantage with adren. Since all bodyshots make half the damage, who gives more hs makes damage proportionally faster (in comparison with the average players) in servers with adre on, than in servers with adre off

And he can also kill more easily, since if you give damage faster, well, you finish your enemy faster. So removing damage, to leave only kills, won't make a change either, adren servers would still give an advantage to people who make more hs :unsure:

Scarhand

27-01-2012, 22:58

For servers who do enable adren and who also enable the health effect for it, it could mess up the hit based calculations. However, the solution is not punishing the adren users, who are giving the other players the advantage of more hits. I think you are being biased toward it. We can't change the rating to account for adren because that only adds bias toward servers with it enabled, and we don't want to have some servers better for rating than others. Don't add it to the formula, or we will see more raters playing on specific servers than before. I don't really see any way to fix it other than damage-based calculations, and that is if it truly halves damage given when attacking that player.

Since giriel said he can start using individual weapons, maybe we could make damage-based calculations work. Say all light weapons use their damage. Then hvy or glitched-damaged weapons can be like kills*115 to decide their damage (115 being the lowest full-HP level possible). Of course the only problem with that is that you get full damage for a kill steal with them, but at least you are only getting a full HP bar of damage rather than thousands with a panzer. It wont count partial damage for them or full damage if there are high medic numbers, but hopefully that will counteract the full damage from wounded players; I don't know if that is safe enough to do though, it seems very unreliable for heavy weapons.

Also hoping for team-based calculations soon.